Articles/Essays
Faith or Works: Do we Need to Bear Fruit in Christ?
The question of faith vs. works is one that comes up often among Christians, yet rarely is it answered in a satisfactory way. Often, the confusion about faith vs. works is greater at the end of a discussion, or sermon, than it is at the beginning. Most Christians agree that faith in Christ is fundamental, but then the question is how do works figure into that, if at all?
On the question of faith vs. works, we are often told that faith is all that matters. If we have faith we are saved, and the final goal and fulfillment of Christianity is salvation. So if we are saved through faith, then why be concerned about works? Many reason that because faith is the key to eternal life (John 3.16), then works must be irrelevant. Sermons are given every Sunday where the importance of faith is stressed, and the importance of works is deprecated. In some evangelical settings, it has even become a creed that as Christians we "don't have to do anything", or that "our works don't matter".
On the other hand, there is something that seems specious with this thinking. The bible tells us that there is great work to be done, “The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest” (Luke 10.2 KJV bible). The problem is that our natural inclination is not to work. Spiritual work requires the dedication and sacrifice of our time and efforts away from worldy pursuits. Even if we are driven by the Holy Spirit to further God's Kingdom on earth, we still have to struggle to achieve our spiritual goals at the expense of our worldy ones, “…If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it” (Matthew 16.24-25 KJV bible). It would seem that if one refuses to work, because they are devoted to their own life, then they are being disobedient and unfaithful to Christ.
What does it mean that we are saved by faith, and not by works?
In order to understand faith vs. works, we need to understand what the bible means when it says that we are saved by faith and not by works. There are many scriptures that make clear that faith, not works, is the cornerstone of salvation, “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified” (Galatians 2.16 KJV bible). Galatians is saying that it is not through rituals or obedience to a moral code that one can become justified in the eyes of God. Rather, it is through faith in Christ as the Son of God, who died for our sins.
This is a key point where biblical Christianity departs from many other religions and traditions. It doesn’t prescribe a particular set of rituals, deeds, or actions through which one can find life and peace. Rather, faith in Christ is the foundation and root through which eternal life springs, “That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life” (John 3.15 KJV bible). This “justification through faith” is a distinguishing feature of Christianity. It implies that there is no inherent righteousness or purity in man through which he can earn redemption. It is only by God’s grace that the slate can be wiped clean, and one can become a new creature in Christ, having a true relationship with the Lord.
Justification through faith means that there is no kind of work or struggle in the world that has the power to redeem us from our sins, or deliver us to Christ, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2.8-9 KJV bible), “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost” (Titus 3.5 KJV bible). It is not on account of our own works or righteousness that we find Christ, but the mercy of God, after which comes the regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.
There is a relationship that exists between faith and works.
So if faith in Christ preempts everything else in our relationship with God, then where do works fit in? Part of the confusion stems from a tendency in people’s minds to separate faith from works. It is often assumed that they are unrelated; works being external actions, and faith being an internal mindset. However, the bible tells us something different, that there is a symbiotic relationship between faith and works. Works are a consequence and obligation of faith, and faith is sustained and perfected in works, “Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works” (James 2.18 KJV bible) .
We know that faith in Christ is the essence and foundation of eternal life, and that without faith we are estranged from the Lord. However, faith is also a process that prepares and matures us, not for our own purposes, but to be fruitful and productive in carrying out God’s will, “If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work” (2nd Timothy 2.21 KJV bible). So it is through faith that we become qualified and useful as vessels of righteousness, “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure” (Philippians 2.13 KJV bible) . Faith is therefore more than a mindset, but a process that results in our actions and lives being made fruitful unto God.
Therefore, if works do not follow faith, the process has been broken and frustrated in us. God’s will is that our faith leads to works, but if we instead focus on our own desires, we become derelict in our service to the Lord, “But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed” (James 1.25 KJV bible). We must resist any tendency to shrink back as forgetful hearers, but move forward as doers, bringing forth the mature fruits of faith.
Jesus describes this process in John 15, “I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit…Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me...Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples” (John 15.1-2,4,8 KJV bible). Jesus is the true vine and we are the branches. Unless we are connected to the vine through faith, we can’t bear any useful fruit. However, Jesus also tells us that the fruitless branches are taken away, so that they wither and die apart from the vine. So we must push forward in faith unto righteous works, while resisting the evil one’s attempts to pull us away. Otherwise, we’ve allowed ourselves to become fruitless branches, to be excised by the Chief Vinedresser.
Faith is sustained and completed in works.
The book of James also speaks in detail about the inter-relationship that exists between faith and works, “What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?” (James 2.14 KJV bible). This statement, “can faith save him?”, seems to contradict a lot of other scriptures that tell us we are saved by faith, not by works. However, the faith being described here is not the living faith of salvation, but empty faith. This is because living faith cannot be separated from works, “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also” (James 2.26 KJV bible). Faith cannot survive apart from works, and it is only when faith is combined with works that it can mature and prosper.
So not only does faith push us toward works, but faith itself is sustained and completed in those works, leading unto salvation, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?” (James 2.21-22 KJV bible). Abraham’s deed was an act of absolute faith in God, because he knew that God could even raise Isaac from the dead (Hebrews 11.19). So Abraham was justified by his actions, because his actions were an embodiment of his faith. When given a choice between obeying God in faith, or not, Abraham acted on faith. So in Abraham’s righteous deeds, which were wrought in faith, his faith was fulfilled.
So we see the deeper relationship that exists between faith and works. Faith is what connects us to the true vine, Jesus Christ. It is through our connection with him that we are able to bring forth righteous fruits, or works, unto God. God then prunes the branches that are fruitful, which strengthens them and allows them to bring forth even more fruit. However, the unfruitful branches are removed from the vine and left to wither. Therefore, as faith is fundamental to our relationship with Christ, works are necessary to sustain and strengthen that relationship. So works are an undeniable part of salvation, and an obligation in Christ, who alone is our redeemer, “Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord” (1st Corinthians 15.58 KJV bible).
Comments
Van 21 May 2010, 12:51
I am in the once saved, always saved camp and although you did not directly say it, it appears you are saying you can be "connected to the True Vine" i.e saved and then because of a lack of fruit, be broken off and lose the connection to the True Vine. Lots of folks hold that belief, but I am not one of them. I look at John 15 this way: John 15:4 reads, "Abide in me and I in you." This seems an effort to communicate the idea that there is a difference between "every branch in Me" and "he who abides in Me and I in him." If a person is "connected to the True Vine" but does not abide in Me, and I in them" are they not "tares?" A Church goer that has not been spiritually born again and sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit. Verse 6 seems to say if a person does not abide in Me, they are not saved. We cannot bear fruit in God's eyes (all the righteousness of the unsaved, that they might think merits something are filthy rags in God's eyes) unless we abide in Christ and Christ abides in us.Then the chapter moves on, from being saved (abiding in Jesus and Jesus abiding in them) to works, abiding in Christ's words (verse 7) bearing fruit and proving by our works we are His disciples, and abiding in His Love by keeping His commandments. And so by faithful service, our joy is made full.
Then Jesus goes on to teaching us a command to follow - love one another just as Jesus loves us, and Jesus died for us.
Sometimes folks like to restrict verse 16 to Jesus saying He chose His disciples, but I think it can be applied to every born again Christian. When we put our faith in Jesus, God either credits our faith as righteousness if it is from the heart and it is not half hearted, i.e. do we still treasure worldly things in our heart, so our devotion is not whole hearted to Christ. If God credits our faith as righteousness, He chooses us, thus we did not choose Him, and He alone spiritually places us "in Christ" and seals us with the Holy Spirit.
Steve 21 May 2010, 16:52
Just wanted to say I have enjoyed reading the material and am just wanting to become aware of future writings and also engage in the conversations from time to time.Thanks,
Pastor Steve
Doug Buckley 22 May 2010, 04:19
Hi Van, good to hear from youThere are alot of theories and beliefs out there about the bible, but "once saved, always saved" is one belief that I just can't see a basis for. Now some people will argue that at the deepest level there are reasons for the choices we make that are beyond our control. I understand that, but what's clear to me from the bible is that following and staying true to Christ is a spiritual struggle that many will lose.
I believe that salvation is by grace, not choice (2nd Timothy 1.9, Ephesians 2.8). God opens our eyes to the truth and we believe. That is the easy part, (though it wasn't easy for Christ because he suffered for our salvation). Finding Christ is easy, like falling in love, but staying true to Christ as his future bride is the hard part.
In the OT, we find Israel in a constant struggle for survival because she was unable to stay true to God spiritually, turning to worldy lusts and idols. This parallels the NT, and our journey as Christians. Paul says he wants to present the church as a chaste bride (2nd Corinthians 11.2). However it's not guaranteed that all will make it. Paul says that the ground which drinks the rain and produces nothing is accursed (Hebrews 6.4-8). Jesus says many times that "many are called and few are chosen". In Matthew 25.1-30 he gives two parables in which the people who act unwisely with his gift and calling are cast out of his Kingdom. Jesus instructs the church of Sardis to repent, so that they are not blotted out of the book (Revelation 3.1-5).
John 15 really drives the point home, because Jesus says that all the branches abiding in him must bear fruit or they will be cast away. A nonbeliever, whether they go to church or not, does not abide in Christ. They simply have no part in him, and cannot serve him because they don't know him. Therefore he doesn't expect them to bear fruit, but it's the fruitless branch, the dead weight, that is cast off from him.
Doug Buckley 22 May 2010, 15:14
Hi Pastor Steve,Thanks for the feedback on "faith vs. works", and it's good to have you here with us. I've been meaning to set up an email list to let people know when there's new material, because its been pretty inconsistent. "Risen from the Dust" is the main thing so far. Either way I hope to hear from you again.
John 26 Aug 2010, 16:09
Doug,If any form of "works" is needed (before or after a "faith confession") then you are back to salvation by works!...because you will never know if you are saved ... or if you have done enough works to "prove" your salvation was "genuine". You have strayed, (believe it or not) back into believing works for salvation... whether to attain it (the salvation) or to verify it (the salvation). Ask yourself how many works must be done AFTER a faith confession is made in order to "prove" that your salvation is real. One a year?... one a month?... one a day?... how will you ever be sure you have done the right amount (or even the right TYPE) of good works to please God?
Think on it....
Blessings to all
John
Doug Buckley 27 Aug 2010, 13:11
Hi John, a fair question,The bible tells us that works are required, but this does not mean, nor does it imply, salvation by works. This is because works do not have the power to save, only faith does.
If someone is drafted and becomes a soldier, then they have certain
obligations and duties to fulfill as a soldier. They don't become a soldier through work, but because they are faithful to the cause they do their particular job, whether great or small. Maybe they go above and beyond, or maybe they don't. However, if they refuse to take commands, then they will be gotten rid of, not because their works would be so great, but because they are unfaithful.
"Doth he [the master] thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are
unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do" (Luke 17.9-10 KJV bible).
Likewise, if one confesses faith and does not serve God, then what does their confession of faith amount to, besides hypocrisy?
"But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you" (Matthew 21.28-31 KJB bible).
Lastly, as far as knowing whether or not you're saved, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" (2nd Corinthians 13.5 KJV bible).
John 27 Aug 2010, 17:09
Hi Doug,"However, if they refuse to take commands, then they will be gotten rid of, not because their works would be so great, but because they are unfaithful."
A man buys a diamond ring for his wife. As big as your eye!! He tells her it is because he loves her and that it is a gift. It is all paid for and he gives it to her out of love. A year later he comes back to his wife and says, ' Y'know honey, last year I gave you that ring, but you have not shown any gratitude at all for it. You haven't had s** with me, nor have you cleaned the house enough, nor have you performed any wifely duties the way I thought you would have (or should have), therefore I'm taking my GIFT back from you... I find you undeserving of the GIFT.
(How many women out there would find this man's actions admirable? Especially the S** part~!!!! lol)
I guess you have to decide for yourself whether the man did right by his expectations of his gift.
It is my understanding that salvation is a gift of God through Christ by Grace. There is nothing we can do to earn it nor is there anything we can do to separate us from it (the love of God through Christ).
Works, (it is my understanding) are for discipleship. growing, rewards in heaven and favor in this life... not for payment for the GIFT of salvation.
Did you happen to get to the Lake of Fire question I posted yesterday in that chapter yet?
Thank you for your time with me.
God's blessing on you,
In Christ
John
Doug Buckley 27 Aug 2010, 17:50
Hi John,I think salvation is a gift in the sense that we are not really deserving of it. It is so much greater than what we could afford with works. The favor of it is truly unmerited.
However, there are strings attached, because we are in a covenant with Christ, being betrothed to him spiritually. He wants a virgin bride, and not a wife that has fornicated with the world. So we can think of it more that he has given us an engagement ring, and we need to take care not to damage it, misplace it, pawn it, or lose it in the garbage. God bless.
John 28 Aug 2010, 06:37
Hi Doug -Great to hear from you again.
Well, I'm not too sure God is in favor of divorce. I think Scripture shows God more faithful than that. He knew what He was getting when He died for us... (For while we were yet sinners) and faithfulness was not part of it. I (we) are unfaithful and fall short consistently and regularly. So it is hard for me to determine at which point He will say, "Enough, I am divorcing you" (If He ever will). It is God Who maintains our salvation.
God bless you also, my friend.
Saw your profile on your homepage... I agree with those you like and those you dislike... :)
Keep the faith, brother!
John
Dominic 15 Sep 2010, 04:29
Was just browsing through websites and fell here and I found it a great read... I'd have to agree with Doug here...Luke 6:37 37 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."
Given, someone who is a believer, and would not FORGIVE his enemies, he will still not be FORGIVEN by the Father... Would his Faith still grant him Salvation? Jesus was clear when he said We will not be forgiven if we dont forgive. That is Works.
Doug Buckley 15 Sep 2010, 14:04
Hi Dominic, good to hear from you,I think you've noticed something there in the scriptures; that Jesus tells us to forgive others (and in him we have the means to), but says if we don't, we will not be forgiven. Matthew 6.14-15 states this as well, "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."
John 15 Sep 2010, 15:17
Whoa, guys,I think you had better re-think your positions. It seems to me you are advocating God forgiving us based on whether or not we forgive others (works)? Where is Jesus in this? Has His salvivic work been abdicated? Does your position also include lusting, or anger, or weakness of obedience? Did Christ die for the sins I can't overcome.... or only for the sins I can? Speaking of forgiveness, does that forgiveness have to occur immediately? Can I be upset with someone for a while and then later (maybe a month or or year or a few years) see I need to forgive ... and forgive that person then (out of a desire to obey, rather than earn salvation)? And if I don't, have I lost my salvation for my unforgiveness? Suppose I forgive 3 people but I can't forgive the fourth, am I considered unworthy and condemned? Have the 3 I forgave not counted?
Whatever Doug and Dominic say the those Scriptures mean, they CANNOT mean that salvation is based on whether I work good for it.... or is that what they are saying they mean? I guess Christ's work on the Cross means nothing unless I do something (forgive) to earn it? So much for the Gospel.
I guess we'd better make absolutely sure we never sin, and if we do, we had better hope our Lord doesn't take us during the time our anger, or pride or sinful nature has not had enough time to be enlightened by the Spirit or we may find ourselves condemned.
How about we trust that our God will look upon our sinfulness in light of His Son's work and accept us because of His work, not ours?
I must say that hearing stuff like this from professing Christians is a bit scary, especially if we truly believe that salvation is a gift from God, through Christ, not of works...(which is what makes Christianity unique above all other religions)
God bless
John
John 16 Sep 2010, 11:33
I re-read my last post and I realized that the term "professing Christians" has a pejorative use to it in certain circles. If Dominic or Douglas felt I used it that way then I wish to apologize to them and ask their forgiveness. I meant it, not that they were "saying" they are Christians (but not really ones), but rather that they were Christians who seem to be contradicting clear teaching that salvation is through Christ and grace, not by works.Again, if I was unclear in my remarks, I apologize.
Yours in Christ
John
Dominic 16 Sep 2010, 14:18
Hi John,You're forgiven, Thank You for clearing it up :) Brother, I didn't make up the verse in Luke 6:37... That was Jesus, himself, teaching us what to do and required us to do... I certainly didn't base it on any other interpretation because the verse supports itself. If Jesus taught us that, then I should believe Him. Shouldn't others as well?
We all believe the scripture is infallible and it wouldn't contradict itself. However, our interpretations of the scripture will and can always mislead us.
Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by God's Grace that you have been saved through FAITH. It is not the result of your own efforts, but God's gift, so that no one can boast about it."
- We are saved by God's Grace through FAITH. And not by our own efforts. AMEN. Through God's Grace, we were able to believe and have Faith in Him.
Ephesians 2:10 "God has made us what we are, and in our union with Christ Jesus he has created us for a LIFE OF GOOD DEEDS, which he has already prepared for us TO DO."
- But its also through God's Grace that we can do WORKS (ex. FORGIVE) that God has prepared for us TO DO... (Not separating it from FAITH)
Where is Jesus in this? Has His salvific work been abdicated? --- His death gave us the Grace that helps us FORGIVE, the Grace to overcome LUST, the Grace to overcome ANGER, and the Grace to OBEY...
All these (Forgiving, Lust, Anger, Obedience, etc.) by our own efforts, we won't be able to accomplish, without Jesus' death on the Cross.
God bless!
John 17 Sep 2010, 10:11
Dominic,The position you put forth originally was not SHOULD we forgive (or that we have the ability to do so by His grace), but rather that if we fail to forgive we are condemned. If your answer is "yes" (according to Luke 6:37) then I'm afraid you ARE putting forth a contradiction. The only alternative your position allows for is for us to live in "sinless perfection" in order for our Father not to condemn us.
If I refuse to forgive, then God will condemn me. If I forgive each and every time, then God will forgive me (your position). So did Christ die for the sins that I have overcome? If you think that than that is nonsense because it is an absolute absurdity to die for sin that was never committed. Like I indicated in my other post, if I forgive 3 out of 4, will I be condemned for the one I didn't do? How many sins that I commit will not be covered by Christ's atonement? Am I to walk, as Luther did, in constant fear that I have not confessed all and every little and minute sin I've committed in thought, word, deed, and neglect?
I also have a bit of a problem with your remark:
----His [Christ's] death gave us the Grace that helps us FORGIVE, the Grace to overcome LUST, the Grace to overcome ANGER, and the Grace to OBEY... -----
His death was for atonement (forgiveness of sins) offered up for us by a life that fulfilled all the WORKS required by us in God's Law... it is the Holy Spirit that empowers us to recognize His WORK and lead us to recognize the things in our lives that need confession and change. But the Holy Spirit's indwelling will NOT prevent me from EVER committing sin again (unforgiveness included) ... not according to Romans 6 & 7 anyway.
I am a sinner. I sin repeatedly and consistantly. I depend on Christ's blood to cleanse me when I confess. John says that if you say you have no sin, you make, not only yourself, but God out to be a liar.
Good works have NOTHING to do with salvation. If they did then Christ died in vain, and if anyone claims they do, they are promoting a contradiction.
Good Works should be a sign of the believer, Good Works should be done. Good Works, however, (although you have the power through God's GRACE to perform them), are not the prerequisite for salvation.
I hope we are not confusing salvation with sanctification which many times is done with discussions like this? Perhaps Luke 6:37 could be referring to God not forgiving us the chastisement in this life that unforgiveness can bring our way? I don't know. But if you stick to "perfection in doing" as a way of forgiveness from the Father, you are running smack into contradiction.
Thank you,
Blessings to you also, brother
John
PS- Thanks for the forgiveness, I hope you forgave me because God says you should and not because if you didn't, you believe you will spend eternity in Hell.
Doug Buckley 19 Sep 2010, 05:25
Hi John, apology accepted,No one here is arguing, or has argued, that salvation is through works. You keep presenting the fallacious argument that if it's possible for one to lose their salvation on account of not serving Christ, then somehow that implies salvation through works. If I say that a good musician creates music, it doesn't follow that good music creates a musician. The works don't do the saving, faith in Christ does, but works are required on account of salvation.
Jesus gives many commands, including to forgive others, and to serve him. Implicit in these commands is that we do our best to follow them. Jesus says, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Matthew 5.48 KJV bible). Obviously no one's perfect, and that's the point of salvation, that we are required to do our best, and he takes care of the rest. Some people have a harder time with forgiveness than others, but the commandment means that in Christ you must war against being an unforgiving person, and then in Christ positive change will happen.
Does this sound strange to you? Look what Peter says, "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." (2nd Peter 2.20-21 KJV bible).
Peter doesn't say if one is saved they're all set no matter what they do, and that they can't fall away. He says that IF they return to their old ways their latter end is worse than their beginning. This doesn't mean that they are accountable for their old sins that were forgiven, but that they've returned to their old ways. They are essentially making a mockery of Christ, and are therefore no longer being forgiven.
This is why Paul says, "For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins" (Hebrews 10.26 KJV bible). I don't care what churches say, because the bible says that If they SIN WILLFULLY, their sins are no longer being
forgiven. Alot of churches are more concerned about making people happy and keeping the checks rolling in, then teaching God's Word.
Further, it's not your place or my place to define what an individual must do to lose salvation. God knows the heart and knows what people are capable of, and whether or not they are doing their part. Paul says "sin willfully", which is not unconsciously or innocently, or caving in, but voluntarily submitting oneself to sin. If one is really in Christ, they should know whether or not they are a reprobate, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" (2nd Corinthians 13.5 KJV bible).
Therefore, we are all accountable to Jesus, and we must trust in his righteous judgment and mercy, knowing that where much is given, much is expected, "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes" (Luke 12.47 KJV bible).
"His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed...cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25.26,30 KJV bible).
-Blessings to all-
John 20 Sep 2010, 12:01
Doug,I’m sorry, but your argument is nothing more that Orwellian “double-speak”. Please listen to your words… listen to what you just said….
---You keep presenting the fallacious argument that if it's possible for one to lose their salvation on account of not serving Christ, then somehow that implies salvation through works. ---
You are saying that one can lose his salvation for “not serving Christ”. Is serving work? If it is, than you can lose your salvation by lack of works. So I ask, and I continue to ask, can you lose it by one disobedience? If not by one, by two, or three…? This is just “Salvation By Works” in reverse (giving works to God on the back end for what is promised for free on the front – used car salesmen can go to jail for that!). And if you say it is not, then you are engaging in “double-speak”.
Is Paul talking about himself as “just occasionally slipping” in Romans 6 & 7? He tells us that sin abides in us and it is our sin that is doing the (willful) sinning.
Again you write:
---If I say that a good musician creates music, it doesn't follow that good music creates a musician. ---
Exactly --- Good music (works) does not create a musician (a saved man)
And again:
--The works don't do the saving, faith in Christ does, but works are required on account of salvation.—
And if I willfully disobey a work, then God takes my salvation from me? That is your position(?)… So God “gives” His wife a diamond ring and then a year later, when the wife doesn’t do what the Husband “requires” her to do, He takes the ring away… some gift! Sounds like you are “earning” your salvation to me?
---No one here is arguing, or has argued, that salvation is through works. ---
That is exactly what was (and is) being argued. That is what prompted my posts to begin with!
This was all from just the first paragraph of your last post, bubba.
Christ’s demands of service are for discipleship… not salvation.
Hebrews refers to going back to the Jewish sacrificial system of atonement under the Mosaic Law which Paul is saying is no longer valid -- (and which the Hebrews he is writing to were falling back into). “… no more sacrifice for sins by that system”. “Sinning willfully” required an animal sacrifice, if you choose the animal sacrificial system again it won’t work because there is no longer a provision for it any more… it is finished through Christ … accept His sacrifice… use that instead … stop trying to earn it. But even if we put all that aside and concur that Hebrews 6 and 10 (“For it is impossible … if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance …” (and) “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins …”) are passages dealing with salvation, how then can one repent of a sin once it is committed? According to these passages once a sin is committed (after salvation is accepted) there no longer remains a way to repent. Doesn’t that run smack into 1John 1:9-10? (If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us). (Contradiction?)
2 Peter does not mention salvation at all… but chastisement for living in sin… the “consequences” of that sin.
Concerning Matthew 25…. I always wondered how a “servant” could consider God as this “man” did?
“Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. And I was afraid, ….”
Makes one wonder how someone (a believer) could think God is “hard” … and reaping and gathering where He did not sow? In any case, whoever this man was, (and if your interpretation holds true) then it appears the other two guys got “in” because of their works (while he didn’t) as did the “goats” and the “sheep” just a few verses down from there (33-46). (Contradiction?)
Was David saved? What about his last words to Solomon? He instructs Solomon to make sure one of his enemies is executed after he (David) dies. Is David cast away from God’s presence? According to you, he willfully sinned, willfully refused to forgive, so therefore he has lost his salvation.
I also must beg to differ with you that we cannot know we are saved… (and we most certainly can’t – by your view--- if we must constantly be concerned if our service to Christ is adequate)
---Further, it's not your place or my place to define what an individual must do to lose salvation. God knows the heart and knows what people are capable of, and whether or not they are doing their part. ---
(“…DOING their part”?!!!! There you go again!) John tells us in 1 John that he wrote that book in order that we may KNOW we are saved …. not continue to worry over it because of our inability to serve adequately.
I guess it can boil down to this: Did ya’ ever get one of those advertisements in the mail that offer you a “FREE” three day stay in Florida but you MUST attend a 90 minute seminar each of the days you are there? And if you fail to attend any of these seminars, then the “FREE” offer is rescinded and you have to pay for your stay? Do you, in your heart, truly consider them to be FREE offers? If so, then fine. As for me, I would rather consider our Lord‘s FREE offer (gift) to be made of much sterner truth and honor than that. When He tells me it is FREE and that all is paid, I don’t expect any gimmicks on the back end.
I can see that these posts are going nowhere but to create dissension and discord among us. I’ll bow out rather than continue to argue points that both sides will not concede to.
But please, indulge me one more reasoning and I shan’t bother you again. If all the above has made no sense at all, then please ponder this: If God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent and He is sovereign and it is appointed to all men once to die and that appointment of death lies squarely on the shoulders of God (no violation of Free Will) and salvation is a rollercoaster ride of ups and downs (saved-lost, saved-lost, saved-lost) and it is God’s will that none should perish… then why would God take someone in the unsaved (lost) state when He could have taken him in the SAVED state? Why leave him to destruction when, if He had taken him 30 seconds prior (before he sinned), He could have taken him into fellowship with Him?
Doug, I loved your co-mingling of the spirit and dead carcasses being dead to eternal conscious torment, (which I will still need to investigate some more)… it is a very refreshing outlook.
Keep going in the faith.
Thanks for listening,
God bless you all
John
Dominic 20 Sep 2010, 14:57
Dear John,May I ask what Jesus said in Luke 6:37? and Matthew 6:4-15?
When you sin against God, do you not REPENT? ask for Forgiveness? Isn't that WORK?
How can you be so sure of your salvation if you don't even know what "being UNFORGIVEN" means when Jesus clearly taught us to "FORGIVE if you want to be FORGIVEN"?
So you basically disagree with James 2:24? "You are justified by WORKS and not by FAITH ALONE"?
Re: GRACE to do what Jesus tells us to do, Eph. 2:8-10. Isn't your Faith given by God's grace? You can not believe in Jesus without his grace... Phil 4:13 Paul declares "I can do ALL THINGS through Christ who strengthens me.". Jesus death gave sent us the Holy Spirit that will help us in our daily lives. I agree, it won't STOP you from sinning because you have FREE WILL....But don't tell me that the Holy Spirit won't give you the strength to resist or overcome those temptations.
God Bless!
I forgave you because that's what Christ taught me :) Aren't you just glad that I did? You think too much...
Dominic 21 Sep 2010, 02:30
John,If we are saved by Faith Alone, why did Paul warn us in Romans? For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live - Romans 8:13"
And if Works by God's grace aren't necessary, then why is a man saved (not just rewarded) through fire by a judgment of his works? 1 Cor. 3:10-15
Im really interested to hear how you can explain these verses to me...
God Bless!
Doug Buckley 08 Oct 2010, 05:04
Was looking over this discussion, and here's a good metaphor to describe being saved by faith, but also the possibility of falling away on account of works.Suppose a rich man lets someone move into one of his multi-million dollar mansions, and says "the only work you have to do is water the garden, mow the lawn, trim the bushes, and maintain the place. If you do these things I will sign over the deed when I return." Did the man staying there earn this house by works? Of course not, because his works don't amount to much of anything in light of the value of the mansion.
If the wealthy man returns in 20 years and the doors are hanging off the hinges, the place is gutted and burned and trashed, he's gonna be mad, and throw the person out in the street. Who could fault him? He gave so much and asked relatively little. Is he an Indian giver? No, because his Word to us makes perfectly clear that we are on a journey and we must serve him to complete the course. Just like it says in James, "faith without works is dead", the works are required to maintain faith in Christ.
This is exactly what Matthew 25 is talking about. The Lord calls him a "servant", and just like the other servants he got the same gift or talent. The problem is that he didn't think there were any strings attached, and clearly there are, "Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury" (Matthew 25.27 KJV bible).
The same holds true for the parable of the ten virgins (Matthew 25.1-13). They were all betrothed to Christ spiritually, but the foolish virgins did not take oil in their lamps. They let their light of faith die out. Again, faith without works is dead.
This is why Paul speaks of self discipline to complete the journey of faith, saying that it is required, "And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible...But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a CASTAWAY" (1st Corinthians 9.25,27 KJV bible).
Also no one's saying that there is a roller coaster of salvation or that one loses salvation the second they sin. Sin is an unavoidable reality of daily life. We are talking about full blown apostisy here, which being derelict in works to Christ is a form of, "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost...If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame" (Hebrews 6.4,6 KJV bible). As Paul points out, after a certain point of maturity one can't return to Christ if they have truly "fallen away".
Also notice what it says in 1st John, "But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin" (1st John 1.7 KJV bible). So all sins every day are covered if one is in Christ, but this does not contradict 2nd Peter 2.20 which speaks of the danger of turning from away from him and to the world, "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning" (KJV).
Lastly, I will point out that Hebrews 10.26 cannot be referring to blood ordinances, since Paul tells us in verse 4, "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins" (Hebrews 10.4 KJV bible).
I probably haven't convinced you here, but perhaps I have at least articulated my positions on some of the concerns that you raise with respect to faith, works, and falling away. At least we know exactly what we're agreeing to disagree on. God Bless.
zowie 06 Nov 2010, 22:14
Hi Dominic and JohnI agree with both of u that it is by grace we are saved through faith in Christ Jesus. John 3 vs 16: for God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Now what does perish mean other than eternal death in the lake of fire. When talking of spiritual death, Jesus said in John 8 anyone who keeps my word will never taste death. Faith in Christ leads u to eternal life thats salvation. Paul wote in the book of Romans: the wages of sin is death ie spiritual death in hell. Jesus commanded us to confess and repent of our sins for He is just and cleanses us from all unrighteousness. Now what happens when u die without confessing your sin, u dont lose your salvation but u will have your part in hell fire or hades. Revelation 20 says death and hades spit the dead that were in them, books were opened and another book was opened, which is the book of life and if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was cast in the lake of fire which is the second death. Therefore as born again christians, we must strive to do His commands, to glorify His name as we are the light of the world. That shows we appreciate what He did for us on the cross.
God bless u all, remember to confess any wrongdoing, don't ignore it, what u sow is what u reap. His blood is available to wipe your sin away. Yours sister in Christ.
dakota 17 Oct 2011, 14:09
Hi, I agree not only with this article and Doug but I agree with what the bible says. The bible says in James 2:18-Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. then James 2:20 says But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?-------- what this verse and Doug is trying to say is that when someone has true faith, there going to produce good works, and the good works is the result of the true faith of the believer. True faith is not the result of good works but good works is the outcome of true faith. When a unsaved person gets truly saved, (he or she) becomes a new creature, sing a new song, and old things are pass and new things come. For an example say this unsaved woman that listens to satanic music, didnt never go to church but just really hated the thougt of even going, and wore dresses clear up to her bottom, but then one day she gets saved and she starts listing to Gospel music, starts going to church, starts wareing modest clotheing exceptable to God. Is by her listening to Gospel music, or going to church, or wareing modest clothing what saved her????????? NO what saved her is her excepting Jesus Christ as Lord and saviour and then her being saved is what produced the change in her. If she of said ya I beleive in Jesus Christ but yet she listening satanic music, not going church, wareing clothes to her bottom five years later and there was never a change in her obvisously she didnt get right with God or there would of been a change. and the bible says people will twist scripture to there on self destruction. Alot of people just want to make excuses and call there selves christians but yet live like the devil and the bible says if u love God then you will keep his commandments. As christians we have to be obedient according to God word and you will if you are truly saved not saying that a christian is never going to mess up and sin be christians do sin but thats why Jesus died on that cross so we can repent but we still have to repent for our sin and we cant hate our neigbor and go to heaven, the bible says that very clearly. God will not forgive us of our sins if we cant forgive our neighbor or whoever we have hate for.Doug Buckley 18 Oct 2011, 18:56
Hi Dakota, yes that's right, that belief and faith come first, and then everything else like works and progress come from that faith. As 1st John tells us, keeping his commandments is a true sign of faith.Pastor Steve 19 Oct 2011, 07:38
Great article Doug. Your thougths were very cohesive and very insightful; I might add that we are truly saved by grace thru faith and not by works thusly being His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for "GOOD WORKS". It is never implied anywhere in scripture we just get saved and set there waiting for Christ to return. We are to be about the works Jesus did as He said in John 20:21 "as My Father has sent Me, I also send you." and He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil (Acts 10:38). Now that we are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus our lives should be a "LIVING" example of that righteousness. That takes us living out in the routines of our lives the very salvation Christ purchased for us and that takes thought, effort, and faith which is clearly seen in what we do. We do good works because we are justified not to be justified. If our faith is real it will be seen clearly in our works. If it is just a mental concept then all we have is a bunch of theologians setting around trying to figure out what real faith is like. Jesus said in John 7:17, "if anyone is willing to DO His Will, he will know of the teaching (doctrine) whether it is of God..." The key here of course is in the doing. Many blessings, Pastor SteveDoug Buckley 21 Oct 2011, 07:16
Thanks again Pastor Steve, yes the Holy Spirit leads us to good works and a purpose. Its like if a man's village was under attack and he just wanted to hide and save himself instead of helping and sacrificing with the others to defend the village. Alot of these people who are only concerned about saving themselves aren't being led by the Holy Spirit.Rules: (1) Posts should be on topic. Your comments and questions should have something to do with the section you post them in. (2) Comments should be civil. No disrespectful, slanderous, or abusive posts.
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