Shortening of the Tribulation Days

stephen      13 Nov 2009, 15:12

The tribulation is acually for 42 months, not 7 years. I have seen a video about this from a great pastor who explains how the 7 year tribulation came into the church. The tribulation is 42 months

Doug Buckley      14 Nov 2009, 14:35

Are there any particular verses he uses to support a 42 month tribulation period?

Jane Christy      17 Nov 2010, 17:50

There are verses which support the 7 years tribulation but 42 months,?oh wow this is a new and serious claim against the word of God. Must be very careful with this.

Lisa Wade      20 Dec 2010, 17:04

I thought it was shorten to 5 1/2 months because no man would have been saved from the beast???? And does happen during the locus days, May - Sept??

Doug Buckley      20 Dec 2010, 17:37

Hi Lisa, Arnold Murray (bless his heart) says that the tribulation of antichrist will be a five month period. I really don't know where he gets this from. The only scripture that describes a shortening is Mark 13.20, and this is just a reference to Christ ending the tribulation period. I don't see how all the things that are supposed to happen could happen within five months. So I think the so-called tribulation will be a seven year period, divided into two 42 month periods. - God bless

Jane Christy      20 Dec 2010, 19:26

I believe it's a 7 years tribulation.

Mary Schulze      10 Mar 2011, 12:03

Doug you are correct about the 5 month tribulation. Revelations 9:5 talks about Satan's return being shortened to 5 months. It will happen during the time of the locusts which occurs during the two feast days Penetcost (in May) and the Feast of Tabernacles (September). Mark 13:20 discusses why the time is shortened - it is for the elect's sake else no flesh would be saved. We have to remember Satan is very charismatic and a great pretender. He's a "scriptural lawyer" and is going to deceive as many as he possibly can. So glad to know other folks are looking into the Word.

Lisa Wade      02 Apr 2011, 17:51

Mary are you saying Doug is correct or incorrect? Arnold Murray is where I am hearing this 5 1/2 month tribulation from too. That ya'll for getting back with me about this!

Doug Buckley      09 Apr 2011, 15:51

Revelation is the last great prophecy given to man, and it describes a seven year tribulation period made up of two 3.5 year periods. I don't see a basis for the idea that the tribulation has been shortened to 6 months.

Lisa Wade      12 Apr 2011, 12:38

Does anyone think we are in the tribulation now?

David      06 May 2011, 14:13

5 months--read for urself--if u don't understand just keep it in mind so as it happens u will recognize it--why argue--if we differ it is the way it was designed

Doug Buckley      07 May 2011, 01:23

Revelation says that the plague of the locust army lasts 5 months, "And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man" (Revelation 9.5 KJV bible). However, I believe this plague to be only a part of the seven year tribulation period.

Meagan      09 May 2011, 20:56

Doug, what you just said is why some people (Arnold Murray too) thinks why it was shorten to 5 1/2 months from 7 years. I dont know what the truth is. If it is 7 years, I think we are in the tribulation.

Chris Lang      25 May 2011, 12:39

I believe the 5 month period you are referring to is not Tribulation. There is only a 3.5 year period of Tribulation. Referenced numerously by 1290 days, 3 and one half years and Time (one year) Times (two years) Half a time (.5 years).

There is no reference anywhere in the bible to a to a 7 year tribulation. It is the Abomination of Desolation spoken in Daniel, Matthew, Thes, and Rev that starts the Tribulation.

We are NOT in Tribulation now. A few things have to take place first. Israel has to sign a peace treaty with the world (Dan) that allows them to rebuild the temple and then the Abomination of desolation has to occur. Dan 7, Mat 24, 2 thes 2.


Rev 9 is not referring to the Anti Christ it clearly says it is a King. His name in Hebrew is(T) Abaddon, and in Greek he is called Apollyon.[b] This is Literally translated to "The Destroyer" A King called the Destroyer. The word Abaddon is Hebrew for "the destroyer." The word Apollyon is Greek for "the destroyer." Two Bible translations actually translate this passage "the destroyer" There is a King called the destroyer. His Name is Saddam. Saddam in Arabic is literally translated to the Destroyer, His name was given to him by his Mother. Story is she almost died during pregnancy and gave her son the name “Saddam.” Doctors advised her to have an abortion but she endured the pregnancy and gave her baby the name of Saddam which literally means the desrtoyer

The 5 month period you are referring to I believe could be the first gulf war. It lasted 5 monthes and it was with a King literally called the destroyer.
The prophecy states that the leader over the army that would cause the sun and the air to be darkened by smoke would be called "the destroyer." During the Kuwait crisis, the sun was blotted out for three months, and again the name Saddam literally means "the destroyer."

The next Trumpet is the 6th Trumpet war that destroys a 3rd of mankind. This can happen any day and most will happen before the start of Tribulation. The 6th Trumpet War is not Armageddon.

In regards to the 7 year period, I think people misunderstand the 3.5 year covenant that Israel signs with the world. THis is not Tribulation. Tribulation (Satans Wrath) begins when the Man of lawlessness is revealed at the time of Abomination of Desolation.

This is not to start an argument or make or point out wrongs but to encourage everyone who has questions to search the truth in scriptures in totality. We will all need to know so we can be prepared to endure.

Best,

David      25 May 2011, 13:03

well we know GOD said it was shortened -- now study for urself and be happy with what ever u decide--just beware so as it happens u will know truth--again GOD told us it was shortened--believe HIM or not

CHRIS LANG      25 May 2011, 13:14

Maybe I am unclear of you thought. Can you show me the scripture you are referring to. There is Scripture that says the shortening of days (time) but not specifically to a 5 month period.

dAVID      25 May 2011, 15:01

GOD DOES NOT SPELL EVERYTHING OUT--HE PUT SOME THINGS SO ALL WOULDN'T UNDERSTAND--BUT CHAPTER 9 OF REVELATION HAS 3 PLACES REFERRING TO THE 5 MONTH PERIOD THAT SATAN HAS TO TRY AND TAKE THE ELECT DOWN--IF U DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT--DONT WORRY JUST STUDY AND BE PREPARED --KNOW THAT AS LONG AS UR IN FLESH BODY AND A SUPERNATURAL BEING SAYS IM UR SAVIOR--DON'T GO CHASING AFTER HIM--WAIT FOR THE 7TH TRUMP AND THE REAL CHRIST COMES WHERE ALL FLESH WILL BE CHANGED TO SPIRITUAL BODIES. THE START OF THE 1000 YR REIGN OF CHRIST.

Doug Buckley      26 May 2011, 19:54

The bible doesn't define any period of time that we are supposed to call the tribulation period. The term tribulation period is basically a made up term.

Revelation 13.5 says that the deadly wound will be healed and the beast will have power for 42 months. That's 3.5 old testament years. That means that the beast receives the deadly wound before the 42 months. I don't know the exact breakdown, but the beast is already trying to take over the world, and there is war before the 3.5 year period.

Daniel 9.27 says that the so called antichrist (which is the wrong term, but whatever) will confirm a covenant with many for one week, which is interpreted as seven years. This begins his rise to power, which is over a seven year "tribulation period". That's my opinion

DAVID      26 May 2011, 20:32

ur still forgetting-GOD said HE shortened the time.
believe HIM or not--study and see if u can figure it out--if not just know that the fake comes before the REAL DEAL

chris LANG      26 May 2011, 20:33

Tribulation is not a made up term and is described as a 3.5 period. Daniels 7 year period is when Israel signs the peace treaty but this is not Tribulation but a 7 year period. Tribulation starts at the time of abomination desolation spoken by Daniel, Jesus, Paul, and John




Mat 24 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days

Mark 242" But in those days, after that tribulation the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

Rev 7:14, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


The Bible clearly gives a time frame for Tribulation. 3.5 years.

Dan 7:25 He shall speak words against the Most High,
 and shall wear out the saints of the Most High,
 and shall think to change the times and the law;
and they shall be given into his hand
for a time, times, and half a time.

Rev 13 5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months

Rev 12 - 13 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time ((3.5 year tribulation) time =1 year, times = 2 years. Half a time = half a year

Rev 12 -5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, 6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for) 1,260 days

The referenced beast with a mortal wound is the leopard with 4 heads. (See Daniel) These beasts described in Daniel and Rev are Governments/ Countries. It is one of the Governments that appeared to have a mortal wound but its mortal wound was healed.

The question is are there 3 governments on earth today that fit Daniels Prophecy. These must be on earth at the time for the prophecy to be fulfilled.

The Beasts (Governments) are
Bear
Leopard (with 4 heads)
Lion

Are there Countries or Governments known by these animals and the answer is yes.

Leopard which has 4 heads and one has a deadly wound = Germany, 1 reich, 2 reich , 3rd reich and then the birth of the 4th reich

Bear = Russia

Lion = England

David      26 May 2011, 20:37

ok --no one seems to care about GOD STATING HE SHORTENED THE SEASON--if HE said it--it must tell u somewhere in scripture what HE shortened it to--good luck in ur studies

C lang      26 May 2011, 20:46

I do care, the shortening of days is clearly a good discussion and yes God will shorten the days ( I believe this is actually the speeding up of time, thus shortening the days) however the reference to 5 months in the 5 trumpet is taken out of context in the totality of prophecy. You cannot explain away every reference to 3.5 years to the 5th trumpet which most likely already happened. Yes we are now awaiting the 6 trumpet war that kills 1/3 on mankind.

David      26 May 2011, 20:49

i never mentioned the 5th trump and not sure where that came from --but if u can't see the 5 months in scripture--don't worry

chris Lang      26 May 2011, 20:53

A David posted on top Rev 9 where 3 times 5 months was given. This is the 5th Trump.

Cheers,

Doug Buckley      26 May 2011, 21:53

Chris, I didn't say that the word tribulation isn't used, but the bible doesn't define the tribulation of the end as being a certain amount of years.

Think about this for a minute. If the the one world government or beast has power over the world for 42 months, then how can there be global war, as described by the first and second horsemen. Global war means people are fighting, not global unity under the mark of the beast. The first horsemen goes forth to conquer, and then comes war, as Revelation 6 explains. It doesn't all fit into a 42 month period. IMO it makes sense to refer to the seven years as the tribulation period.

David, as I explain at the top, my opninon is that the shortening refers to Christ's return. In other words, the beast and persecution or tribulation would go on till no Christians are left alive, except for Christ's return (Mark 13.20).

Chris       26 May 2011, 23:21

Doug,
Thanks for the follow up and I enjoy hearing thoughts so do not take this as argumentative but for me it is as Pauls say's staying awake. I think we have some different view points so I will write some of my beliefs and lets wait and see's to articulate the difference

I think we are given a timeline for Tribulation. When the Anti Christ, Son of Perdition, The lawless one is revealed (abomination desolation) the 3.5 year clock begins. If you look at the passages above it will outline the time.

I know this is contrary to the traditional teachings especially when it comes to pretrib - post trib which has a 7 year Tribulation but that just does not exist in scripture.

The one world government will be the vehicle but it will be lead by the Anti Christ and False Prophet. We know from scripture that not every country will fall under the reign of the AC and there will be opposition. He will be revealed at the time of Abomination Desolation. See Mat 24-15 2 thes 1-12 & Dan 11 31-35

I believe the 4 horses are already loose and are 4 spirits. The horses are not described as a single war but as death and destruction which may be continuous. They could be still loose during tribulation but not sure.

White - Catholicism White is official color (potential false prophet) Catholics believe there will be an evil Pope. Interesting enough, it was predicted to be the 112 Pope and we are at 111.

Red - Communism/socialism

Black - Captialism

Pale was originally Cloros - Ashen (green) - Islam's Official Color. Currently Islam is estimated to be 24% of world population ( read the horseman again)

The 7 Seals parallel Trumps and the 7 Bowls. We know this by the last trump and last seal.

I believe we are waiting for the 6 trumpet war. In my opinion this will happen before Tribulation and may be the catalyst for the peace treaty with Israel (opinion only but I am a wait and see person)

Yes there will be peace and security for everyone who takes the mark during tribulation. The warnings are not for the unsaved but for the Saints. There will not be peace for the Saints. The Church will be here. When you think about it, it should be called Tribulation of the Saints.
In Daniel when he talks about the Abomination Desolation

Dan 31-32 Forces from him shall appear and profane the temple and fortress, and shall take away the regular burnt offering. And they shall set up the abomination that makes desolate (Abomination Desolation). He shall seduce with flattery those who violate the covenant, but the people who know their God shall stand firm and take action. 33 And the wise among the people shall make many understand, though for some days they shall stumble by sword and flame, by captivity and plunder.

So we are here at the time of the revealing of the Anti Christ as it says those people who know their God will stand firm and take action. This is the start of the Tribulation that Jesus says
Mat 24:21 "For then there will be great tribulation such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now." Read 15-28 for context

The Anti Christ has 42 months, 1290 days, Time, Times, Half a Time.

As with everything please search scripture and not take my abbreviated thoughts without verifying in the Word.

Meagan      27 May 2011, 00:34

I thought Israel sign the peace treaty in 195...7 or around that time and that generation will not die of old age. I fear that I will not learn what it is I need to before our Lord comes back. I do know for a fact that the fake will come before Christ and alot of people will be tricked! The 6 trumpet war that kills 1/3 on mankind, will that be in fact war that will kill 1/3?

david      27 May 2011, 08:01

don't know where the person got 5 months ans 5th trump--it is obvious that can't be --but the 5th trump has started the swarm of the islamic army--or swarm of locust.
when that swarm reaches the 4th stage of it's life then u will see the 5 months start
best wishes to all in their pursuit for truth--

David      27 May 2011, 08:05

remember the 6th trump is when the 2nd beast--satan-- takes power--the death of the 1/3 is spiritual death--following satan--satan is playing the roll of CHRIST --spiritual death is the key

Meagan      27 May 2011, 14:18

Ok I think this is what was told to me is that the generation of when Israel became a state will not die of old age..anyone heard of this? Does anyone know when Israel planing on rebuild the temple on the temple mount? any talks in the news about that and the peace treaty???

Doug Buckley      27 May 2011, 15:16

I'm fixing and reposting Chris' last post...

Chris      27 May 2011, 15:19

Israel has not signed the peace treaty with the world spoken of in Daniel. You will know it is the peace treaty when they rebuild the temple on the temple mount. It will be under a sharing arrangement with the world. They will be able to resume animal sacrifices.

The 6th trumpet war will kill 1/3 of mankind. We know it starts at the mouth of the Euphrates River which is the Turkey Iraq region whee we currently have our troops.

I agree with you. A lot of people will be tricked and that is why the Church needs to be in sound doctrine. I believe the pre-trib theory will leave many believers perplexed and off guard to endure as the bible teaches. Jesus said many will fall away



Mat 24:9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Be encouraged. Prophecy is God's gift to us so we can know HE is God and in control.

David      27 May 2011, 17:29

Israel is not the land of Israel--Israel is the 10 scattered tribes--when GOD refers to Israel--it is the 10 scattered tribes--if He is talking about the land HE specifies--Judah and the fake tribe is in the land of Israel--When Satan comes back--the people who know the truth leave the city of Judah--
they prepare for they know the time is short for CHRIST to return and HE levels Judah when HE returns.
Much of the strength of the people ISRAEL is in USA ENGLAND_ CANADA and other free nations that follow GOD-- oh well now i may be getting to deep so i will stop

Marilyn Nave      24 Jul 2011, 11:30

Hi all,
just jumping in here because this subject is fascinating and I love dividing the Word of God to it's joint and marrow...

after reading these posts, here are my thoughts for you to ponder:

the "great tribulation" is referenced by Jesus in Matthew and Revelation and in His conversation, He is describing some horrific events. He uses the term "great" as a descriptor following the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place....basically, setting himself up as a god. Jesus is referring back to Daniel's prophecy for timing. A side note is that the word tribulation is used elsewhere in scripture and certainly means trouble. However this time it is used, it is called "great".
To see what the timeline is, we go back to Daniel. Daniel 9 describes a timeline of 70 weeks. 69 of the weeks have been actual blocks of 7 years or 69x7 that have already happened in history. Therefore, the 70th or last week would also be 1 block or 1x7, or 7 years. The peace treaty is "confirmed" or "reaffirmed" at this time meaning it's already been in place but not active. Daniel 9:26 says in the middle of the week, "abominations he (prince that shall come) shall make desolate" which corresponds to the verse in Matthew that Jesus was quoted. So what is our clue? In the middle of a 7 yr period of time, this event happens (abomination that causes desolation or standing as god in the temple) which triggers the "great tribulation".
Now, how do we know how long the great tribulation lasts? Well, we know it's approximately half of 7, somewhere around 3.5 yrs. In Dan 12, he asks the angel how long this lasts and the answer is "time, times and an half" (vs7) for the "time of trouble" to end.(vs1) At the end of chap 12, he confirms the days to be 1290, which is 3.5 years plus 1 month.
We could get into a discussion what that extra month means but it would only be speculation. I'm thinking it could be talking about a lunar year for the Jewish calendar where a month is added to get the seasons back on track.
Revelation 11 mentions "42 months" is the period where the gentiles trample the holy city. This corresponds with Daniel 9 also where "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary". (v26) Revelation 12 also mentions that the woman is nourished for "time, times and half a time" where she flees from the dragon.
Because all of these passages describe the same events, and since they intentionally mention the same reference of time, we can safely conclude that the "great tribulation" that Jesus was talking about both in Matthew and Revelation is about approx 3.5yrs or 42 months or 1260-1290 days depending on how the add'l 30 days are calculated.
The "great tribulation" could not mean 5 months. The only reference to a 5 month period of time at the end of the age is the 5th trumpet. We cannot jump to conclusions about Noah's time and accurately interpret Revelation based on Genesis. Neither can we say that all the rest of scripture that references the 3.5 yrs are now null and void because Jesus says He shortened the days. Remember, Jesus said He shortened the days so that the elect would survive! This means that people are dying during the time Jesus is referencing. During the 5th trumpet, "men will seek death but death will elude them" and the locusts did not have power to kill but only to torture those without the seal of God on their foreheads for 5 months. Therefore, if no one is dying during this horrible 5 month period and you conclude that the "great tribulation" is only this 5 month period of time, then Jesus' statement would not make any sense. For Jesus to have shortened the days to allow His elect to survive, He must be talking about shortening the days when and while the elect are dying or martyred. Jesus must be saying that before this event of the "great tribulation" unfolds, His Father has already determined that the days will be short. Satan only has a little time to mess with creation...3.5 yrs, 42months, 1260ish days

Marilyn      24 Jul 2011, 11:58

me again,

As to the question on whether or not we are in the 70th week of Daniel already, here are my thoughts:

The 70th week starts with confirming a treaty of peace I mentioned this in my last post that the treaty talked about is a treaty already in place but not active. At the beginning of the 7 yr period, it becomes active. This will allow a temple to be rebuilt. We know this because Jesus references the temple when He talks about the last days, Paul mentions this temple in his letter to the Thessalonians, Daniel certainly references the temple as well. Isaiah prophecies a time when the Jews are gathered back to their homeland and they reinstitute the law. They will be sacrificing in the newly rebuilt temple when the abomination of desolation occurs and puts an end to the sacrifice, mid week. Remember in Jewish law, only the Levitical priests could make atonement and only in the place that God chose for His Name to reside. The Jews who do not accept Messiah as the fulfillment of prophecy, will go back to their old covenant sacrificial system after this temple is rebuilt. This will be displeasing to God. He says in Isaiah 66 that He will bring upon them (His people) what they dread "because when I called, none did answer".

So.......... somewhere between the convenant reaffirmation (beginning of 7yr week) and the mid week point (great tribulation commences with abomination of desolation), the temple must be in place and functioning. In case we have missed the politics of the peace treaty being confirmed in the news, we certainly could not miss the occupiers of the temple mount at this time are not Jewish. I have no idea how long it would take to build a temple but the site would have to change hands somehow and for that to happen there would have to be a war and then a peace treaty.

Doug Buckley      24 Jul 2011, 15:30

Hi Marilyn, thank you for contributing. You've clearly put some thought into the tribulation period.

As to the issue of the tribulation period, we know that word tribulation is used with respect to the period right before the end of the world. However, the bible never really defines it as the second half of the 7 yrs. Does the bible mean tribulation for the elect, or more generally tribulation for everyone? We know that nation will rise against nation before the abomination of desolation is set up. So I think you and others are right about a 3.5 yr or 42 month tribulation period, but the bible doesn't absolutely define a "tribulation period" of 42 months.

(This isn't directed at you, but its where the conversation was headed anyways).

I know what you're saying about the temple and sacrifice is what just about every evangelical church seems to teach. I do know that Jesus said, he would destroy and raise up the temple in three days. Jesus is the Jewish Messiah sent to the Jews and Israel for restoration back to God by salvation from sin. Gentiles just happen to be included. The idea that God would make a different covenant with Jewish nonbelievers, sanctify a new temple, and bring back animal sacrifice is to me a blatant heresy.

On the other hand the bible clearly says that the abomination of desolation will stand in the holy place and also take away the daily offering. I think this simply means that he will stand in the place of Christ spiritually as the counterfeit messiah.

I don't have it all worked out but in Hebrews Paul says, "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water" (Hebrews 10.19-22 KJB bible).

marilyn      24 Jul 2011, 20:08

Doug,
Jesus refers to the abomination of desolation being the event that proceeds the "great tribulation". See Matthew 24:15 He also tells us that it is the event that Daniel spoke of. (also Matthew 24:15) That is why I went to the book of Daniel. Jesus directed His audience there in Matthew 24 so we are directed there to get clarity and understanding. The abomination of desolation was also spoken of in Daniel, hence Jesus' reference to it. The timeline is part of Daniel's prophecy. That is why the timeline is tied to the "great tribulation" that Jesus is speaking about in Matthew.

As to the temple, clearly there is a temple in place or 3 different men would not have spoken of it, One being God, Himself. I did not say there was sacrificing going on, Isaiah did and Daniel did. Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
4I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

This same passage a few verses down speaks of this timeframe. 8Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment?

And Daniel also spoke of the sacrifices 8:13, 9:27, 11:31, 12:11. It makes sense to me that the Jews looking for Messiah will begin again where they left off. They must do this to follow the Torah.

Another tidbit of information: about 6 months ago we heard a gentleman from Israel speak at church regarding the preparations for this temple. He said that right now they have identified several hundred (don't remember the exact number) Levites who are either already in Israel or preparing to move. They have all the golden articles made and waiting. They are in full swing preparation mode for the temple to be rebuilt and in old covenant working order. These are not" Messiah fulfilled" Jews, these are "Messiah has not come yet" Jews. My husband sat on an airplane a few months back next to a rabbi who also verified these facts.

I agree with your argument that the Lord would not reinstitute the old covenant. He doesn't. He is not happy with them as Isaiah and Daniel foretold. He is allowing them to be "handed over" as Daniel puts it for denying the Fulfillment of the law in human form. Hebrews explains it well as you have quoted.

btw, the word "sacrifice" in Daniel 9, corresponds to H2077 in strong's. You have quoted it as "daily offering" but the true word is "zebach" and it means "slaying or the flesh of slain animals". It is the same word used 161 times from Genesis to Zephaniah and translated 155 times as "sacrifice". You can study this further at eliyah.com.

Hope I'm not rambling but I just wanted to be clear on what I was representing as truth.

marilyn      24 Jul 2011, 20:31

Found this also:
Since the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70 A.D no lamb has been sacrificed for passover. In April 2008 this tradition has been reinstated in the old city of Jerusalem as expectation increases for the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem
http://youtu.be/Hv4Ks_5YgIQ

marilyn      24 Jul 2011, 20:33

oops
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hv4Ks_5YgIQ.

Doug Buckley      24 Jul 2011, 20:41

Not to be jerk, but I have to delete this post (see rule 3 at bottom). A few quotes are fine, just not copying an article.

Doug Buckley      24 Jul 2011, 21:33

OK the verse you're talking about with respect to great tribulation is Matthew 24.21, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be". What if Jesus means at that general time there will be great tribulation? In other words, the great tribulation doesn't start with the abomination of desolation, but that is the point that one must flee to the hills, btw, I think you're right on this.

Isaiah 66 is about God's vengeance on the Day of the Lord, and my opinion is that vs. 3 is a reference to religious hypocrisy.

There are tribulation references to a temple and animal sacrifice. The problem with taking this literally is that if nonbelievers do build a new temple and make sacrifices then how could it be called the "holy place". It would be an unholy place and the sacrifices would not be received by God and therefore could not be taken away.

There are references in the NT that believers make up the new temple with Christ as the corner stone. Maybe Daniel means spiritually the antichrist removes Christ and sits in his spot. The animal sacrifice symbolizes the ongoing salvation work of Messiah, though he only suffered once on the cross. Taking away the sacrifice might mean that the true workers of Christ are forced into hiding, but this is my speculation.

marilyn      25 Jul 2011, 08:27

great discussion Doug. here are my observations:

It's not general timing. He clearly stated this is different than has ever been or will ever be. Notice the WHEN followed by THEN, those connect the thoughts.
Matthew24:15WHEN ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, 16THEN let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:…….. 21For THEN shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Also notice "you therefore shall SEE". This will be an observable event, not a spiritual event. In fact, all of the rest of the passages that give details about what will happen, these details are vivid, actual, happenings.....people will die.....a lot of people. We will be tested and refined. The earth is going to be shaken. All of this is going to be played out in an observable sense. Why think any part of it is a metaphor for a spiritual event? Why would Jesus warn us with a sign of when to flee and then hide the sign? That would not be in keeping with the reason He gave the sign to begin with.

Read Isaiah 65 as well. The Lord starts out speaking of the grafted and then goes back to the firstborn. He is not pleased with their obstinence and proclaims what He is going to do to them. Why would they rebuild a temple and not sacrifice? In their eyes, how would atonement be made except to sacrifice? Why would we not take the word "zebach" literally? Don't we take it literally when we read Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deut? I know you deleted the articles I posted but go and read them. I'm sure there are many more since they have been sacrificing since 2008 according to that video. Did you watch it?

I don't know why it's called the "holy place" and yet they are not doing what is pleasing to God. In Rev, there is reference to the "holy city" as well and we know it is being trampled and destroyed by enemies. But I don't think you can discount all of the passages that point to literal sacrifice (the word zebach) and still maintain your position that there will not be sacrificing because God would not honor that. He obviously doesn't honor it and allows captivity once again for His people....only this time, it's a short period of 42 months.

Doug, if His people had accepted Messiah when He came, would there be a need for a great tribulation? After all, this is not judgment....that comes later. So all enemies of God are still going to get what's coming. This time of tribulation is for another purpose. What do you suppose that is with respect to the Jews? Think about all the stories we've read about them. (not that we're any different) But our Father has great patience. He is serious about the covenant He made and He is offering any and every opportunity to come into covenant with Him. According to them, that covenant relationship is outward symbols. (But you and I know it's of the heart) Even their inability to keep the covenant by outward symbols points to Messiah, yet they've turned away and gone back to the symbols that they can't keep. They have been returned to their homeland as stated in scripture and they will rebuild a literal temple as stated in scripture and they will reinstitute the sacrificial system as stated in scripture. All of this will be SEEN and the evidence that all of that is literal is the very prophecy being fulfilled as we speak. They are preparing and in some cases are already doing.

Romans 9:22 What if God, although choosing to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the objects of His wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the objects of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom He also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Doug Buckley      25 Jul 2011, 15:35

Hi Marilyn, the Greek word translated as then is "toteh". According to Strong it can mean next in order or "at that time" generally. 15 and 16 can be tied together, but I'm not convinced about v.21.

Much of prophecy, and especially tribulation prophecy is coded in metaphor. Will the moon literally turn to blood? Neither is Jesus a literal Lamb slain, yet he fulfilled the real purpose of all those literal rituals God commanded to be carried out.

One shouldn't assume that the Jews who deny Christ represent the Jews in prophecy, because the apostles were Jews and many Jews have and are returning to God in Christ, just like was prophecied. Also the remnant of the ten tribes are part of the new covenant, and mentioned over and over again in prophecy. IMO believers, including the remnant of Israel and gentiles, are the people of God and the women's seed.

Doug Buckley      27 Jul 2011, 18:24

Good discussion about the tribulation period. I was looking over Matthew 24.21 again. It definiately seems like Jesus is talking about "great tribulation" for the saints at the time of the abomination of desolation. The context is fleeing to the hills. I have to look more into the timing of the tribulation.

ben      18 Aug 2011, 09:24

shorting of days is mot shorting of the tribulation period, it means less day light, less night time, it would no longer be a 24 hour period, it will be less meaning something has to happen to happen to speed up the rotation of the earth, couldnt tell what it is but is the only logical explaination, as far as the tribulation goes for the elect can only occur when christianity is outlawed which would only happen under a nwo with one head of state and one religion. also the implication of the mark of the beast where obvidsly no one who reads there bible no matter their doctrine will not accept, there for making themselve an enemy of the world, will have to flee considering satan himself will not give up in wiping us out, so we will be hunted, by shorting the days will give us an advantage in surviving, God will make us strong during this time wither it is strengh or will power i dont know, but i would like to think he gave Samson strengh it could well be the same for us. I do tho find it some what disdurbing that out of all the articals i have read and the comment treads that thier is still no clear indacation to what the bible is telling us. sometimes it seems over complicated, others to simple and even some to far fectched (aliens). with all the knowledge we as a human race has gatherd over time i think the time for speculation is over and mabye start using some logic. for example "the shorting of days"-what makes a day-a full revolution of our axis 24hrs-how can this be shortened- a quicker rotation. the next logial step would be to ask what event could cause this. plenty of possibilitys a giant earth quake, in 2012 we a spose to pass through our galactical equator, also the return of plant x on its 3600yr orbit which is spose to come close to earth this alone can have dramatic affects on gravitional pull also like the moon effects our tides this would make our seas rore. the way i look at is that God is sience true sience not half of what we are told, and therefor everything that occurs will have some logical reasoning, for every action there is an oppisite or equal reaction newton didnt make that up he just discovered it, God knows what chemical change has to be made to turn water into wine and he knows so much more. God has given the signs to look for and has told us what needs to be done, i dont think we will completly understand the book of revalations prior the end, but it will become all the more clearer when they start to unfold. I myself will not let myself be fooled nor will nothing that is going to happen surprise me. i dont know what thed good lord has in store for me, so i will continue praying reading my bible, and never and this is key never lose FAITH. if we all stick to this no matter the great deception, or killing or hunger or death, or what ever that vile creature has instore for us, we will end up by his side with him for eternity. May God bless all of u, and may ur jorney thro this dark time and the times to come be fruitfull and may our souls meet in the golry of God. Amen

marilyn      18 Aug 2011, 10:49

Ben, makes sense. I know that part of the prophecy in revelation is the 4th angel who sounds his trumpet causing 1/3 of the sun, moon and stars to turn dark. This could also be a clue that maybe what Jesus referred to as shortening of the days. Jesus may be talking about light separated from darkness where light is called day and darkness is called night as in Genesis. Therefore, with 1/3 less sun (light), we indeed have a shortening of that light, or saying it another way, a shortening of "day".

Regardless, the reason the days are shortened is so that some of the elect can survive. In other words, had the days NOT been shortened, no one would survive(Matt 24:22). This tells us that whatever He is referring to, Followers are dying because of it. And shortening of the days keeps that from happening.

Thinking about it this way almost makes me think He's talking about a total time period. Satan has only 1260 days to make His last stand, a short period of time in all of history........rather than just light/dark or less than 24hrs...in which case, Followers could still be killed in totality. BUT, we will find out as it unfolds. Praise Him for caring enough to warn us and advise us.

A side note.......back to your thoughts......I read an article that said every time there is an seismic activity, ie earthquakes, volcanoes, etc. the earth's surface changes and our rotation actually speeds up. It's only by miliseconds but it's also my understanding that all of these cataclysmic events will happen with increased frequency and severity. We were just in Yellowstone 3 wks ago and that whole place (caldera, almost 1500 sq. miles) is a basin of a volcano. And it's is increasingly unstable. Hawaii, also. Isn't that interesting????

ben      19 Aug 2011, 02:54

Thank Marilyn, think u are the first person to say i make sense, real boost for me. Just to comment on the earthquake artical you where refering to think i may have read the same one. Could not tell you exactly which text's in revalations states this but there is a constant reference to a Great earthquake that will shake the whole world one never seen befor. conindence i dont think so, but surely if there was truth or fact to that actical there is our answer. one big event that could change every thing, the lenght of our days changing of landscapes( islands will flee, mountians will disapper) distruction of economy and inferstucture. it amazes me had God told John to write the book of revalations it makes reference to one event in two or three points of view, from heaven from earth from the spirtitual and so on. I read a free down load book "little book of prophecy and truth" by dan norquest. the way he explains things was powerful and really help me understand and use different keys to dicipher, was a blessing from God himself. Considering i was on the wrong path till something pop in my head. 'REVALATIONS' so i googled it.that was it the last 2 months have been exciting. since the book is also known as the revalation of Jesus Christ, and it turly is. if u havent read that book written by Dan i would recommend u do, mind blowing and he is so honest. praise be to Jehovah, for he is what he is.

marilyn      19 Aug 2011, 05:59

I will definitely get it and read it.... this subject is fascinating, not only to see prophecy unfold but to grow in our walk with the Lord. So much of it is being able to hear His voice as He explains it to us. Really listening to our Savior as He guides us through His word to make sense of it. It is so important that we hone this skill. We will certainly need it to survive. You said it right on....Revelation is the same event from all the different perspectives. Many clues can be gleaned by understanding that very thing. And isn't it just like our Lord to give some clues to some and some to others? Keeps the body of Christ dependent and accountable to each other. We are so grateful that we have a Savior who loves us this much. And grateful that the elect can converse across thousands of miles on this thing called the internet. "But you Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge" Looks like this prophecy is being fulfilled before our very eyes.....................

ben      19 Aug 2011, 10:50

that it is, and the time is upon us, when you read the book i recommend you will see the stage is almost set, here is one for you, not and exact quote but u will under stand. And before me i saw a great army one the world has never seen, and i heard them boast of an army of 200 thousand tousand. just recently cant tell u exactly but china proclaimed they can gather an amry of 200 million. another reference made is in the chapter titled the woman and the beast, the beast being describe as red dragon who cast down a thrid of the stars. red=communisum dragon- symbol of china, the stars still baffle me but i have read some where that they are symblo for angles, a possised army perhaps, fallen angles as we do know that demons can do this. another is the is the land of mog and the kings of gog will come down from the north upon israel. interesting mog is the acient tribes of russia and gog is the surrounding lands ie iran iraq ect, russia has already positioned millarty equipment and supplies in these countrys. why would they do this they are not at war. you may be wondering by now that russia is not north of israel, the hebrew word for israel is ephrim and refering to what david was talking about above, ten lost tribes well it has been speculated that cuacsian americans are decendants of the tribe of ephrim and considering russia is just a hope from canada which is north of who america. kinda makes a bit of sense, but here is the kicker if u go tho the chapter which describes the tribes in the old testiment u will find a reference to one of the tribes cant rember which one but is says they will bite a force which will come down on ephrim on the ankle like an adder and cause them to stumble back to where they came from, what i can tell you that tribe is been linked to wait for it, Canada. again i say the stage is set. with a little bit of reserch and a bit of logic together we all can make sense of this. cosidering the bible says the tribe will be reunited at the end means that they must be still in exsistance, now the 10 tribes where captured in 8th bc by the assians and taken over the caucasies mountatins the spelling is so wrong there is it just a coisidence that it sounds like caucasion? there is so much more out there i havent even touch on islamic, but keep in mind that a quater of the world is muslim and they are at the moment trying to impliment shalin law in the countries they have set a foothold in even here in australia and what is the muslim form of ecacution, beheading how will the martys die, beheading. i can go on but you can see what i am saying the stage is set or almost. i dear not predict anything and i could be wrong but i feel it in my heart, my soul feels the darkness approaching and i can not shake it. i pray to God for guidence so i may not get it wrong, and send out fear or even make myself a fool. i no longer fear death and am so excited for the play to start, i know there is no good to come out of this but the destination is worth the jorney and that is enough. he has given us the tools we need now we need to use them. Every day the glory of God shines brighter, and i would love be there next to him.

Sres      22 Sep 2011, 02:22

Thanks

Jims      22 Sep 2011, 17:52

Tribulations are common but not the Great Tribulation which Jesus said that it would happen once . It has been proven that the coming Great Tribulation will be 42 months/1260 days. Therefore it will be clearer to write Great Tribulation and not Tribulation. Thank you.

George      19 Oct 2011, 21:33

I am not intending on sounding like a smart a** / i do believe and i tend to believe that when the anti christ heals the deadly wound it will be 5 months from the beginning to the end! The reason it moves so quick is because we will be dealing with a super intelligence and technology most people will act as if they had been stung by a scorpion and allow the people in charge to do what ever they want! Now to me not meaning to sound like a smart a**! I have struggled with this seven years and 5 month time period for years now! This is the question I pose to my self! " if Gods word is the beginning and the end and in certain areas it appears to say seven years and other areas say 5 months" "If the writings are devine and alive which means they know the begining and the end before it happened why then would there be a need to specify the time was shortened?" Really think about that! I have and my final conclusion was to prepare for 2 years and if someone says they are GOD or Jesus and im still in the flesh than prepair at that point for the next 5 years! At that point when the fallen angels arrive the bible is no longer faith based, it is reality live! Your believe system will be so strong at that time you will know God will help you till the end/ not just believe! You will know! Peace and love to all believers and to hell with the rest!