Risen from the Dust
The Lake of Fire is Eternal Hell
- The Lake of Fire, aka Gehenna, is the second and final hell.
- Unlike the first hell, the Lake of Fire will be a place of permanent and everlasting damnation.
- After the resurrection of Judgment Day, the evil and impenitent ones will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
- There is much debate as to the nature of the Lake of Fire.
- Will the wicked will be tormented forever in the Lake of Fire, or annihilated into nothingness?
When rightly divided, the scriptures support annihilationism; the belief that the wicked will be "destroyed" in the Lake of Fire.
When informed Christians speak of an eternal hell, they are referring to the future Lake of Fire, not the current domain of Hades. There remains, however, a great deal of debate and confusion as to the nature of this final hell. Will the Lake of Fire, aka Gehenna, be a place of never ending torment and suffering for its inhabitants, or will those souls who are cast into it be annihilated, ceasing to exist?
The two sides of this debate, annihilationism and eternal torment, are firmly entrenched, holding to the belief that their view is scriptural and the other view is not. Eternal torment is the more traditional church view, often touted as being the only viable option given a plain straightforward reading of the bible. Proponents argue that a multitude of verses leave little doubt that people will suffer in hell forever, and that those who deny this are appealing to people’s sympathies over the Word of God. However, a closer analysis of these passages reveals that this interpretation lacks scriptural substance, and gets its credibility more from church tradition than anywhere else. In order to resolve this issue in a convincing way one must address it head on; neither giving heed to people’s sympathies or making appeal to ingrained tradition, both of which place man’s rationale and opinion above revelation from God.
First, we should recognize that there are numerous passages in both the Old and New Testaments that describe the wicked as dying or perishing, and the righteous as having eternal life. On the surface, these verses might seem like proof that the depraved will ultimately be annihilated in the Lake of Fire. In reality, however, they are almost irrelevant to this discussion, because they do not mean dying or perishing in an absolute sense.
Take for example, “Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die” (Ezekiel 18.4 KJV bible). When properly understood, this verse is not talking about annihilation, but rather individuals perishing in their sins, and descending into a state of death when they die. We know, however, that these souls not only continue to exist in Hades, but will eventually partake in the second resurrection. Many of these dead ones will receive eternal life, when they are raised up in the second resurrection (Matthew 25.31-46).
In contrast, the righteous are described as having eternal life because they dwell in a state of life, even after they die in the flesh, "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die..." (John 11.25-26 KJV bible). Though they die in the flesh, those who have been freed from death through Christ never die spiritually.
So we cannot resolve this conflict between eternal torment and annihilationism by focusing on descriptions of the immediate afterlife for believers and nonbelievers. Rather, we need to focus on verses that specifically address the Lake of Fire on Judgment Day, and what its effect will be on those who are cast into it.
After the millennium is over will come the White Throne Judgment, as described in the book of Revelation, “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell [Hades] delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works…And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire” (Revelation 20.11-13,15 KJV bible). In the White Throne Judgment, the dead will receive according to their works, and those who serve the evil one will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
However, before the dead are judged they will first be resurrected up from the dominion of Hades (Revelation 20.13), and into spiritual bodies. After this will come the final judgment, which for the great multitudes of humanity will be the dividing line between eternal salvation and eternal damnation. Everyone will receive according to their works, and according to the mercy or the cruelty they have shown for others (Matthew 25). The righteous ones found written in the book of life will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but the wicked ones left out of the book will be gathered up and cast into the Lake of Fire. One must recognize that the Lake of Fire is a supernatural fire, and its effect will be upon spiritual, not flesh bodies.
Jesus looks forward in time to Judgment Day, and the Lake of Fire, when he describes Gehenna in Matthew 10.28, “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul [psuche] and body in hell [Gehenna]” (Matthew 10.28 KJV bible). In this verse, Jesus warns that one should never be intimidated by the threats of men, because at most they only have power to harm the flesh. Rather, one should fear the Lord, who has the power to destroy both mind and body in Gehenna (aka the Lake of Fire). Therefore, the Lake of Fire is far worse than either the death of the flesh or the captivity of Sheol, because it has eternal implications. The second part of this verse is not referring to a person’s flesh body, but rather the spiritual bodies that the dead will be resurrected into on Judgment Day. So as to the ultimate fate of the wicked, this verse tells us that the Lake of Fire will be an unquenchable supernatural fire, with the power to destroy both the spiritual body, and the thought process within it.
But then what exactly is meant here by the word destroy, which can be interpreted in many different ways? In what sense are they destroyed? The Greek word that is translated as destroy, apollumi, doesn’t mean literal annihilation. Rather, it is generally used to describe a state of ruin, spoilage, or destruction. So this verse actually doesn’t fully support annihilationism, because apollumi suggests that the wicked won’t be totally consumed and brought to nothing. However, this verse doesn’t support eternal torment either, because it implies that upon entering the Lake of Fire some kind of lasting damage or ruin to both mind and body will take place. So from this verse alone we can’t determine the nature of this ruined state, as it applies to the individuals cast into Gehenna.
Jesus provides us with further clues about Gehenna or the Lake of Fire, that will lead us to a better understanding of its effect upon those cast into it, “And if thy foot offend thee [causes you to stumble], cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell [Gehenna], into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9.45-46 KJV bible). Again, Jesus warns that it's better to enter into spiritual life on earth being maimed, then in the future to be cast into the Lake of Fire, where the worm never dies and the fire is not quenched. In a very literal sense, one should do whatever is necessary to resist evil desires and impulses, because the Lake of Fire is so much worse than anything conceivable on Earth. Worms cannot survive in a natural fire, but Gehenna is a spiritual place of everlasting flames and putrefaction.
Jesus chooses his words here carefully, because in the Old Testament, Isaiah foresees this future place of damnation, and uses the same words to describe it, “And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh” (Isaiah 66.23-24 KJV bible). Isaiah describes that all flesh (representative of all humanity) shall go forth and look upon the wicked in Gehenna, a place of eternal fire and damnation.
This passage parallels the New Testament description of Gehenna as a place of unquenchable fire, where the worm never dies. However, notice how it makes no mention of the people cast into it as perpetually suffering, or even being alive. Rather they are described as dead bodies or carcasses, that are eaten by worms and burned with fire. So the use of the word carcasses here (Hebrew: peger), indicates that the people in Gehenna will not be continually tormented. Instead they will be dead, in the sense of having no spark of life or thought process within them. Their minds will be annihilated by the Lake of Fire, but their spiritual bodies will continue to exist in a ruined and dishonored state.
This is why Revelation describes the Lake of Fire as being a second death, because it will bring about the death of the person within, “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death” (Revelation 21.8 KJV bible). The wicked will experience a second death in Gehenna, becoming spiritual corpses that lack any thoughts or emotions.
Thus, we can finally understand the true nature of eternal hell. The Lake of Fire will be a cesspool of inanimate spiritual carcasses, serving as a monument to the Lord’s indignation towards corruption and evil. Rather than a place of eternal torment, it will be a smoldering and putrid cemetery, bestowed by God with eternal shame and disgrace. The Lake of Fire will be the final abode of the wicked, where their lifeless remains are spiritually eaten by worms, and burned with fire forever.
This annihilation scenario is also supported by Jude 13, in which God informs us about the punishment in store for false shepherds, “Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever” (Jude 13 KJV bible). Also, 2nd Peter 2.17, “These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever” (2nd Peter 2.17 KJV bible). We know that these verses are not talking about the descent into Sheol, which is the immediate afterlife for most of mankind. Instead, they are referring to eternal damnation because they say everlasting blackness of darkness is reserved for them. This description of eternal blackness and darkness suggests that the wicked will become unconscious, and that rather that dwelling in a state of eternal torment, their minds will altogether cease to exist.
Comments
Roger 12 Apr 2009, 16:12
I am rather enjoying the straightforward nature of these study-lets.I think the site name is rather brusque, and likely to put off a number of people, certainly here in England...
This study I found interesting, in that it does not take one text and make doctrine from it, but draws upon a number of ideas in scripture.
I liked the link regarding Jesus' speaking of the worm that does not die, etc. Something I had not considered before.
Thank you.
I'll certainly return to read the site again, which is well and truly bookmarked!
God blessing of peace be upon you and those who you love
Roger
Doug Buckley 13 Apr 2009, 22:05
Thank you for that Roger,I try to derive the teachings directly from the scriptures, as opposed to "using" the scriptures to support the teachings.
God bless
Brad 01 May 2009, 01:21
I seem a bit confused here. So...their minds will cease to exist...does that mean they won't be aware that they're being punished? I just want to know for knowledge sake. I read that they will have eternal damnation and yet it also says that they won't be aware of it? Hmm... any insight on this? I fear I have misunderstood something.Doug Buckley 01 May 2009, 15:06
Hi Brad:They become completely unconscious, and basically dead, except that their spiritual corpses continue to exist.
The damnation or punishment is eternal because it lasts forever, and cannot be undone or reversed. They can never be forgiven or brought back to life. Therefore, they are not being actively punished every day forever, but rather the ramifications of God's punishment upon them are eternal.
Margaret Becker 09 May 2009, 21:35
Thank You for these insights. I will have to read them over more than once to digest them.Margaret Becker
Doug Buckley 09 May 2009, 22:45
Your welcome Margaret. The next chapter also deals with the Lake of Fire (Gehenna).DEnnis 21 May 2009, 23:12
I tend to disagree with your conclusion about not having consciousness. Read Luke 16 about the rich man and Lazurus. He was tormented and aware of it. The many passages about there being weeping and gnashing of teeth also speaks of torment.Doug Buckley 23 May 2009, 17:38
Hi Dennis,Luke 16 is actually not talking about the Lake of Fire, but rather the Greek "Hades",
"And in hell [Hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom" (Luke 16.23 KJV).
Hades is the first or current hell, and is different from the Lake of Fire, which is the second and final hell (see Ch.2, Hell in the NT). Many people experience torment in Hades, but it is not an eternal place.
The term "weeping and gnashing of teeth" is mostly used in a millennial context. It's only used with respect to the Lake of Fire in Matthew 13.42. On Judgment Day, there will be an initial period of weeping and gnashing of teeth as the tares are gathered up and cast into the Lake of Fire, (See ch.30: Lake of Fire: Eternal Torment).
James Thrill 28 Jul 2009, 00:10
I find this a reasonable marriage of three opposing doctrines that cause much grief in Christian discussion: universal reconciliation, eternal damnation, and annihilation. Why UR? Because most advocates, I feel, support it more as a reaction to the horror of ET than as a viable doctrine that stands on its own merits. Congratulations on a commendable joining of three POV's that is strongly scripturally-based, rather than just vain imaginings.Doug Buckley 28 Jul 2009, 11:28
Thank you James,If the bible said that people will suffer forever in the Lake of Fire, then I would accept that, but it really doesn't. Understanding the connection between the Lake of Fire and Gehenna is critical.
Matt Arnold 16 Oct 2009, 20:51
What about Revelation 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." ...Tormented day and night for ever and ever? It sounds like they are conscious? And from Revelation 20:15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." It sounds like they meet the same fate as those in Revelation 20:10?Doug Buckley 17 Oct 2009, 23:22
Hi Matt,Revelation 20.10 is certainly describing eternal torment within the Lake of Fire, but the question is who or what is being tormented? The beast and the false prophet as depicted here are not conscious beings, rather they are different manifestations of Satan's power. Likewise, the devil (Greek: diabolos), is Satan's most basic role as that of a slanderer and defamer. So it is these different manifestations of evil that will be tormented in the Lake of Fire (see the next chapter for more detail about Revelation 20.10).
In the Lake of Fire, clearly some "things" will continue on in a ruined and tormented state, but that doesn't mean that living beings will be tormented forever.
Stephanie 24 Oct 2009, 16:00
Doug,Thanks for sharing your study with us. I was reading another article on this subject and the author describes Gehenna in a rather different light. Basically, Gehenna is a word rooted and derived from the Valley of Hinnom, a place known for the fire of Molech. The author asserts that Gehenna refers to a specific place that Jews would recognize as a place of judgment. What do you know about this version of Gehenna? Thanks,
Stephanie
Doug Buckley 25 Oct 2009, 21:37
Hi Stephanie, thank you for your question,Gehenna is a real place outside of Jerusalem that is mentioned several times in the Old Testament. The word Gehenna comes from the Hebrew "Ge Hinnom", or land of Hinnom. It was initially a place where the horrid ritual sacrifice of children was conducted. Later, it became a kind of garbage dump and cesspool, where dead bodies were sometimes burned. I don't know that the Jews had any particular beliefs about Gehenna beyond this. In the NT, Jesus uses the term Gehenna as a kind of image and symbol for a future place of eternal damnation, namely the Lake of Fire.
Stephanie 25 Oct 2009, 22:34
Thanks. I look forward to exploring the rest of your website.Mike 04 Mar 2010, 14:01
There is no mention of two hells in scripture, that's totally bogus imo.The richman and Lazarus was a parable about the lake of fire i believe, I could be wrong. Notice that the richman has eyes he can see and he has a body. Sounds alot like the second resurrection does it not?Doug Buckley 04 Mar 2010, 15:10
Hi Mike,The rich man and Lazarus cannot be about the Lake of Fire (Gehenna), because it uses the Greek word "Hades" (look up "hell" in a Strong's Concordance). Revelation 20.13-14 says that in the future, Hades will be emptied of its souls, and then destroyed in the eternal Lake of Fire. Thus the Lake of Fire and Hades are different hells.
Neither can the rich man and Lazarus be taking place after the second resurrection, because the second resurrection hasn't happened yet. The second resurrection will take place at the end of the world, after the millennium (John 12.48, Revelation 20.5). Yet the rich man asks to go back and warn his brothers (who are still alive) about the afterlife. The rich man dies, and is neither resurrected or judged, but finds himself in torment. It does mention a few body parts, but these are representations for us to understand the spiritual nature of his torment. A flesh body can't survive very long without literal water.
stephen 24 Mar 2010, 13:01
HiI also believe that the wicked will be destroyed in the lake of fire and not eternally tormented. But why do we believe that people are burning in hell right now? Where in the Bible does it say that there is a torture chamber called hell where people get tormented by fire and demons until judgment day? I think it is a weak argument to use the parable of the rich man and Lazarus because I believe it is quite symbolic.
God bless
Doug Buckley 24 Mar 2010, 17:58
Hi Stephen,Just to be clear, I don't believe everyone is tormented in Hades like the rich man. They more or less "stew" in their own sins, so the greater the sins, the greater the spiritual torment. - God bless
Sarah 26 Mar 2010, 00:32
Thank you Doug,I've really appreciated your explanation and Scriptual backup for what you have written.
In my opinion and experience it seems that the more popular belief these days is that of eternal suffering. You may or mayn't know, but I'm very curious to find out whether or not there has been a shift throughout history from the belief of annihilationism to eternal suffering or not. Like there was a shift from the popular belief of "good works" to "grace" as as a result of Martin Luther's influence.
Thanks
Sarah
Doug Buckley 26 Mar 2010, 16:29
Hi Sarah, thank you for your kind words and question.It does seem that eternal torment is more popular, or at least more mainstream. I can't say I know which was more popular in the past, but I vaguely remember something about eternal torment gaining ground later on.
Paul 10 May 2010, 21:31
Concerning the question of eternal punishment, what do you make of Matthew 25:41-46? "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”Doug Buckley 11 May 2010, 16:45
Hi Paul,The Lake of Fire is an eternal punishment in the sense that they have no chance of being restored or brought back to life. It's basically eternal damnation (ch.30 also goes into Matthew 25.46, and how it relates to the Lake of Fire).
paul 17 May 2010, 22:13
Regarding the following answer you gave about "who" is being tormented, did you forget about:Re 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Here it obviously says that the PEOPLE who worshipped the beast will be tormented forever and ever. Wish we could get around this, but I will not wrest the scriptures...
Doug Buckley 17 Oct 2009, 23:22
Hi Matt,
Revelation 20.10 is certainly describing eternal torment within the Lake of Fire, but the question is who or what is being tormented? The beast and the false prophet as depicted here are not conscious beings, rather they are different manifestations of Satan's power. Likewise, the devil (Greek: diabolos), is Satan's most basic role as that of a slanderer and defamer. So it is these different manifestations of evil that will be tormented in the Lake of Fire (see the next chapter for more detail about Revelation 20.10).
In the Lake of Fire, clearly some "things" will continue on in a ruined and tormented state, but that doesn't mean that living beings will be tormented forever.
Doug Buckley 18 May 2010, 20:03
Hi Paul,Please read the next chapter which addresses Revelation 14, and alot of other verses that come up when discussing the Lake of Fire. The problem with using Revelation 14.11 to understand the Lake of Fire, is that the context is not the Lake of Fire, but rather Christ's return at the start of the millennium. When Christ returns, the worshippers of the beast will be tormented in and by the light and fire of his presence. However, the Lake of Fire will exist outside and away from the holy city, just as historical Gehenna was outside of Jerusalem.
mary 17 Aug 2010, 16:25
Does spiritual bodies die in lake of fire ? Does people suffer in lake of fire or die fast? Will our physical bodies stay in graves forever and spiritual bodies from spirit rise when Jesus comes ? Let me know. ThanksDoug Buckley 17 Aug 2010, 23:03
Hi Mary,People's spiritual bodies will die in the Lake of Fire, and they will probably not suffer for a very long time. The souls in heaven will be changed into spiritual bodies when Christ returns.
John 25 Aug 2010, 21:19
Doug,
I'm having a tough time scripturally seeing the description of the spiritual body you outline in your work. The only part of your work that seems to explain it is below:
"So the use of the word carcasses here (Hebrew: peger), indicates that the people in Gehenna will not be continually tormented. Instead they will be dead, in the sense of having no spark of life or thought process within them. Their minds will be annihilated by the Lake of Fire, but their spiritual bodies will continue to exist in a ruined and dishonored state."
How was this conclusion arrived at? Where is the scriptural basis for this "jump" from annihilated "minds" to continually existing spiritual bodies that feel no pain?
By the way; You have a very good synopsis for blending eternal torment with annihilation... :)
FYO - I am leaning heavily toward the annihilation camp.
Thank you
John
Doug Buckley 26 Aug 2010, 06:32
Hi John,The reason why I put the two Lake of Fire chapters at the end is because they draw on alot of the information and conclusions from previous chapters. For example, ch.2 documents the Lake of Fire or Gehenna as being different from Hades. Chapters 14-21 deal with the two resurrections of the dead, the nature of them, their timing, and spiritual bodies. When all this is brought together, we know that on Judgment Day, nonbelievers will be resurrected out of Hades and into spiritual bodies. The question then becomes what is the effect that the Lake of Fire will have on these resurrected bodies.
John 26 Aug 2010, 12:03
Hi Doug;You wrote;
"The question then becomes what is the effect that the Lake of Fire will have on these resurrected bodies."
That's exactly my point. I'm trying to find where it (the Word) says that spiritual bodies of the unsaved will feel no pain? Where they will be dead in the "conscious", but undying in their "being"?
I'm "surfing" the site and trying to read as much of the chapters as I can, is (are) there any specific chapter(s) that define this view in depth?
Thanks for all your effort...
Blessings
John
Doug Buckley 27 Aug 2010, 16:47
Hi John,We know from Matthew 10.28 that some kind of broad "destruction" or ruin will take place to those who are cast into the Lake of Fire, aka Gehenna. Now destruction or ruin is not the same thing as utter annihilation. So what is the nature of the damage that the Lake of Fire does to them, and what is the part or parts that remain?
We know from the description of Gehenna in Isaiah 66, that the individuals are depicted as "corpses". A corpse is the deteriorated remains of something that has died. Corpses are unconscious, unfeeling, and unable to be brought back to life. We also know that Revelation 21.8 calls the Lake of Fire a second death. So from these descriptions one can conclude that the Lake of Fire will on a spiritual level kill those who are cast into it, leaving their spiritual corpses behind. Also, keep in mind that souls are transformed into spiritual bodies, and so it's different than a soul dwelling in a flesh body. Hope this helps, God bless.
John 28 Aug 2010, 06:51
Hi Doug,It really didn't help that much, but thank you for trying.
It still appears that your connection between the mind dying and the spiritual body living on painlessly is conjecture, not actually defined (spelled out) in Scripture. (And I would think such an important piece of the resurrection and the eternal destiny of the unbeliever would be clearly defined in at least one verse or passage ... especially considering it is the destiny of the unbeliever which is many times used as a tool of evangelism)
In any case, it is an extremely interesting perspective and one that I will keep in mind as I continue to research this intriguing subject.
Great postings,
Love and peace
John
Micke 22 Oct 2010, 16:02
One thing that is important to point out is that the Lake of Fire will cease to exist, therefore everything in it, after the Great White Throne Period.Josh 25 Oct 2010, 00:44
To Micke: No! The Lake of Fire is unquenchable fire! And that also means that everything in it is still gonna be tormenting forever day and night!To Doug: ok, I don't get what you're saying about everyone being dead corpses in the Lake of Fire.
From what I've read on a site (can't give the link because of what the comment form thing said) it says that everyone's souls will be tormented, not dead (or annihilated)!
Doug Buckley 25 Oct 2010, 01:48
What I am arguing here is that the Lake of Fire is an eternal place, but that the ones who are cast into it will be destroyed by it, and continue on only as dead corpses. This is based on the connection between Gehenna and the Lake of Fire and passages such as Isaiah 66.23-24. Eternal torment in the Lake of Fire is not as biblically solid as some orthodox churches and websites will have you believe.Josh 25 Oct 2010, 03:03
Ok, this is kinda confusing! Also, it says in Revelation that Death is thrown in the Lake of Fire! It says the last enemy to be destroyed is Death! So that will also mean there is no more death! Which would also mean that the people in the Lake of Fire are tormented!
Doug Buckley 25 Oct 2010, 16:30
Josh, you've pointed out that it says death and Hades will be cast into the Lake of Fire. However, what is this "death" that will be cast into the Lake of Fire? Who are the ones imprisoned by death? They are nonbelievers who are in a state of death because of their sins (1st Cor. 15.56, John 5.25). So it is not literal death or nonexistence.So you must first understand the "death" that is in the world now, before you can properly interpret Revelation 20. It says that "death" and the things cast into the Lake of Fire will undergo a "second death", which is an event, meaning they will be ended, ruined, and destroyed.
Josh 25 Oct 2010, 17:44
But this could also point out that people will be tormented!So that could basically mean that sinners thrown in the Lake of Firewould be tormented and not annihilated or remain as corpses! It also says the Beast, False Prophet, and the followers of the Beast will be tormented day and night in the Lake of Fire! Along with Satan!
jackie 26 Oct 2010, 00:07
doug,about what josh says... it does speak of them being tormented in hell forever, where there are gnashing of teeth, how can teeth gnash unless they are alive in some form, besides, their worm dieth not, that is like a pig skin, you can cook pork to a crisp, even ashes and it will still have live worms in it, it is a very filthy meat, pigs don't have sweat glands, so everything they consume stays in their flesh, so it's not inconceivable to believe that our filthy flesh will somehow be transformed into one that cannot be consumed, cause it does say that they will be tormented day and night forever and their worm will not be consumed. jackie
Doug Buckley 26 Oct 2010, 00:31
Josh, so if spiritual death is estrangement from God, and it is destroyed, then that would mean that there is no more estrangement from God. So it supports annihilation. See the next chapter for an explanation of the "torment verses". Ezekiel 28.19 says clearly that the devil will not be or exist anymore.Josh 26 Oct 2010, 13:10
To Jackie: same here! If they are tormented day and night, then that will mean they are still alive in the Lake of Fire! It's just that they will be tormented!So right on! (for what you said)
To Doug: Doug, the Devil will still exist! It's just that he will be tormented day and night (with the False Prophet, the Antichrist, and the followers of the Antichrist)! And the people in the Lake of Fire will NOT be annihilated! If they are, the Bible would say so! But it says that they will be tormented day and night (NOT annihilated!)
But also, how does it support annihilation? (that will not make any sense if it supports annihilation!)
Doug Buckley 26 Oct 2010, 13:47
Josh, you're entitled to your opinion on the Lake of Fire, but you are basically repeating a series of arguments that have already been addressed here.First, read the two articles about the Lake of Fire, and what others have wrote, then you would know that the beast, false prophet, and devil as mentioned in Revelation are NOT living beings, but roles of Satan. Why does Ezekiel 28.19 says very clearly that satan will "not exist forever". Revelation calls the Lake of Fire a second death, not an "second life of torment". Revelation never says that the followers of the beast will be tormented IN the Lake of Fire.
Josh 26 Oct 2010, 15:42
Ok, Doug, Revelation does say the Beast and the False Prophet and the Beast's followers will be tormented day and night forever and ever (Revelation 19:20,20:10)! It also says the Devil will be tormented, NOT ANNIHILATED! (Revelation 20:10)Also, I just read Ezekiel 28:19, it says he will be no more, it only mentions "he never exist again" in another version of the Bible! (it wasn't KJV or NIV)
What version of the Bible are you using? If you were using KJV or NIV,then it doesn't say annihilated in both of those versions!
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Ok, to make a long argument short, i've got my opinion, and you've got your's on how we view the Lake of Fire. I hope there were no hard feelings! And if there were, I apologize!
It was great talking to you! God Bless!
John 26 Oct 2010, 17:44
I think you eternal torture guys should take into account something that your position seems to overlook.The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit decided to create this space /time reality that we are “trapped” in. In their omniscience they realized that out of the ten billion(?) lives that will be born (I’m just picking a number to help in the illustration), One Billion will gain salvation and worship them forever while Nine Billion will end up in eternal torture with no end or hope of relief. (I picked one billion and nine billion depending on how straight you make the gate or how broad the road to destruction? Most claim that very few of us know genuine salvation). And you mean to tell me that you believe that our God took those numbers into account and decided amongst Himself that that was acceptable “Collateral Damage”????
Play that out in your minds.
If you were to know, (really know) that you will have ten children of which nine will be born paralyzed and in constant agony for their entire lives (never mind eternity) with no hope of a cure or relief; while one child out of the ten will be born healthy and worship you forever, would you or would you not decline to have kids? I can’t imagine anyone choosing the suffering of nine children just to have one healthy one. Now please remember the arguments for sin nature and God giving us a choice in Christ are not valid in this example. God sees (and some preach ordains) the inevitable failure and eternal torture of the nine billion that won’t choose Him and chooses to go ahead with His plan, creating them anyway. That’s the scenario you of the eternal torture mold are asking me to swallow.
And PLEASE!!!, If I hear one more … “ Well, God’s ways are not our ways” quip, I think I’ll puke. Justice … right … wrong … goodness…. these are all universals. If God can change justice or goodness (or any other word for that matter) to mean anything He wishes at anytime He wishes than we will never be able to comprehend ANYTHING He says b/c He will always be able to change the meaning of what we are digesting. So if God has told me it is wrong for me to choose evil, then it is wrong to choose evil, period. And evil must always be evil.
Just something to ponder as we try to figure out if God is a God of eternal vengeance and torture or not?
Doug Buckley 27 Oct 2010, 13:18
Josh, I'm not necessarily angry at you, but I wish you would read both articles about the Lake of Fire. I also wish you would read Rev 14.11 which DOES NOT say that the followers of the beast will be tormented in the Lake of Fire. It says that they will be tormented in the presence of the Lamb and his angels, and that's a big difference. It also says the smoke of their torment ascends forever, just like in Rev 19.3 where Babylon's smoke ascends forever. So does this mean Babylon will continually be destroyed forever and ever? It's all referring to Christ's return, not Judgment Day. Lastly, the Hebrew in Ezekiel 28.18-19 is very clear and the commentators agree (not always the case). It says he will "not be anymore" or "be nothing forever" (Olawm in Hebrew means "forever"). The NIV is not a good translation for reading a verse very carefully.This is the problem with the way eternal torment is sold to people, they reuse the same verses over and over again, out of context, till everyone assumes that that's what its saying, when most of the time it's not even talking about the Lake of Fire.
Josh 27 Oct 2010, 16:06
Ok, Doug, I just read Revelation 14:11 (KJV), and it says the smoke of their torments ascends forever and ever. And it does say that they have no rest day and night (which will mean they're tormented, not annihilated).Also, Babylon won't be destroyed forever, it will be destroyed. But Babylon is really either the New/One World Order, Babylkn itself(Iraq), or a revived Roman Empire. And it's saying that God will destroy The Beast's kingdom.
But, about the Beast, False Prophet, and the followers of the Beast will be tormented. Also, when Satan will "be no more", it possibly means his reign will be no more(my guess; it also calls Satan the King of Tyre in Ezekiel).
But my point is, I don't think the Lake of Fire is a place of annihilation, but a place of torment (as it says in the Bible;KJV).
Look, Doug, my point I'm trying to make is that the Lake of Fire is a place of torment, not annihilation!
It's been great talking to you! And I hope there were no hard feelings! God Bless!
Doug Buckley 27 Oct 2010, 17:39
Josh, that's the whole point with Revelation 14.11. They WILL be tormented, but IN and BY the presence of Christ at his return, not in the Lake of Fire. They are tormented in the millennium, which is the gap of time between Christ's return and Judgment Day. I don't have any hard feelings, but there is just such a rush to proclaim eternal torment in the Lake of Fire, when it has no real solid support in the scriptures. It also raises alot of issues about the nature of God (as John posted about). Anyways, maybe I'll hear from you again at some point. God-bless.Josh 27 Oct 2010, 20:08
Ok, Doug, it says also in Revelation that after the millennium, Satan will deceive the world again, and then wage war against God (again), and then he will be defeated and thrown in the Lake of Fire with the False Prophet and The Beast and the followers of the Beast, "where they will be tormented day and night forever and ever" (Revelation 20:10).So, in other words, they will be tormented, not consumed/annihilated in the Lake of Fire!
Just want to point that out!
God Bless!
jackie 27 Oct 2010, 23:31
sorry josh,i meant to send that note to" john",
but I did read your paragraph to doug, can I say something about that? The Bible speaks about us not fearing the One who can destroy the body, but rather , The One who can destroy the spirit in hellfire. The Bible also mentions that He, being Christ can sever soul and spirit, so somehow our bodies die and we become spirit beings, and the spirit being can feel, obviously a worse type of torment, for some reason at the mention of Jesus name, the demons tremble and flee, so it is something spiritual and not carnal, cause it says we will be changed, in a twinkling of an eye and corruption puts on incorruption and mortality puts on immortality, so it is speaking of a spirit and not a human body. it also says that we are quickened as the angels, and we know they are invisible spirits, but they can see each other. be careful cause people try to teach that our bodies live forever, that was the first lie, satan told eve, you will surely not die... but because she believed him, it brought death to us all, so going back to hellfire, or the lake of fire and brimstone, it may also be that we will have a constant reminder of what happened, so we don't sin again after the millenium, cause we have t.v. and we can watch famous people that have passed away for different reasons whenever we want, it may be that God will have the t.v. screens running day and night, to keep us in line, so we have that constant reminder, also, God is a very advanced being, so with all the technology we have, we can't even fathom what is ahead, but we shoud'nt follow Him out of fear of becoming roasted humans on a stick, but because we want to see Him and finally receive that joy unspeakable, apparently the disciples that saw a glimpse, stayed on track cause it was something incredible, I don't know how The Good News, became the bad news (hell), it was never supposed to be that way. hope I shed some light in a new direction jackie
Tshepiso Makuru 07 Dec 2010, 03:37
since i became a christian,i always wanted to undersand these things and thankfully this site helped me a lotDoug Buckley 07 Dec 2010, 09:49
Hi Tshepiso, it's good to hear from you. Understanding the two hells (Hades and the Lake of Fire), and the resurrection of the dead is important since there is so much confusion about them.tye roach 01 Apr 2011, 02:35
Hi DougI Was Wondering is Hell and Gehenna The Same Place ?
Doug Buckley 01 Apr 2011, 17:04
Hi Tye, there are basically two hells in the bible, Hades and the Lake of Fire. Gehenna is another name for the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire (Gehenna) is an eternal hell, but Hades is not. The difference between them becomes clear when you go back to the original Greek and Hebrew bible.tye 04 Apr 2011, 02:06
- Thanks Doug !I Also Have several Other Question .
What is hades and how is it different frm the lake of fire (gehenna) and who is cast there ( both hades and gehenna) ? And when people are cast into the lake of fire , is it for eternity or do they cease to exist ?
Doug Buckley 04 Apr 2011, 15:48
Hi Tye, the Lake of Fire is the same place as Gehenna, and it is an eternal hell. So far, nothing has been sent to the Lake of Fire. On the other hand, Hades is a temporary hell that souls go to right now (see ch.2 for more).Individuals cast into the Lake of Fire (Gehenna) are most likely destroyed and cease to exist (see above).
Alfredo 04 Jun 2011, 16:55
no where specfically does it say that Lazarus and the RichMan is a parable. Remember we cannot add to scripture. Does it ring a bell that Jesus never used a proper name in a parable, but in this event he does. If it is a parable it still has to have some type of meaning, Jesus is not telling this story for nothing .alfredo 06 Jun 2011, 13:44
I GET IT DOUG!I understand the use of the lake of fire. If i don't get anything else i get that. Just like when a physical body dies, the body or corpse can be seen but the person inside is dead. A corspe is something that is dead. This is the differnce: When one dies the physical body rots (to the dust) the soul dies (hades). But they will be raised again at the second resurrection (the wicked), into a spiritual body. They are then cast into the lake of fire. Since the BODY is now spiritual it will forever exist (the spiritual body). Isaiah refers to this body as a carcass, meaning whats inside of this spiritual body is dead [the soul]. Jesus said "fear him who can destroy both body and soul". This supernatural fire of God will destroy the soul, mind, memory, etc. but that spiritual corspse will continue to exist, because this spiritual body is eternal and because that fire can never be quenched. Just like in the physical, the person is dead but the corspe is left behind. Its just slightly different when dealing with the spiritual, the person is dead but that body is still there the only difference is that the spiritual body will always be there it has no dust to return to. This is called "everlasting punishment" because this is the punishment, death, no return from it, irreversable.
As far as pain my opinion is this: they will feel the pain until they die just as if it was a physical fire the person will feel the pain until they die. This is just my opinion. thanks doug for helping this makes more since than anything i have ever heard and scripture backs it.
How did i do Doug am i on the right road?
Doug Buckley 08 Jun 2011, 02:19
Alfredo, you understand exactly what I'm saying about the Lake of Fire. I'm glad you wrote this because it can help clarify what I'm saying about the Lake of Fire for others as well. If i ever rewrite the chapter I might borrow from your explanation since it is so clear.I would point out that when a person dies in the flesh their soul goes to Hades and its more that they are overtaken by spiritual death. A nonbeliever is already spiritually dead before they die. You might have meant this anyways.
Thank you for your summary about the Lake of Fire. As you know, or will find out, there's a ton of false teachings and theories out there but if you stick with the Word you'll always be able to tell truth from lies.
Kyle 25 Jun 2011, 20:21
This is really common sense. When Adam died "this day" we through Adam were all spiritually dead from that point on Mankind from that point was physically alive with a conscience but spiritually dead.So upon death the reprobate can only die and live no more whereas those of us who have been "born again" or "born above" hence made spiritually "alive" will live on.
It is so common sense when Jesus stated flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. Next take that statement and combine it with the fact that man is born spiritually dead.
So in closing unsaved mankind’s physical body dies and rots when he dies on earth . And since He was unsaved and born “spiritually dead” what else can his spirit body do but mimic his physical body yet on a spiritual plane.
Kyle
Doug Buckley 25 Jun 2011, 23:36
Hi Kyle, thank you for your comment. I'm not sure I fully follow it, but I see that you understand about nonbelievers being alive, but spiritually dead. Nonbelievers aren't judged when they die, but go to Hades which is a place of spiritual death. On Judgment Day they will be released from Hades, and the wicked ones will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Gehenna) and become spiritual corpses.David 24 Jul 2011, 02:02
I feel it is perhaps important for us to remember that in the whole collection of the scriptures there is almost negligible focus on this topic of the lake of fire, which is also why it is difficult to support any interpretation conclusively. However the scriptures do testify clearly that God will judge the righteous and the unrighteous, and his judgement is eternal. I believe we also should adopt the same emphases as those of the scriptures, for our God is righteous and holy but loving and merciful, hence in his grace he has saved the ones who believe into him. Shall not the judge of the earth judge righteously? Can we tell God how he should judge unbelievers, we ourselves being sinners worthy of the same judgement, if not for the grace through his son Jesus Christ? Therefore we look for and await the new heaven and the new earth, in which righteousness dwells. And let us proclaim the good tidings of Jesus Christ not in an attitude of condemning unbelievers to the lake of fire but in a heart of love towards ones who need the love of God. The grace of the lord be with you all, amen.Doug Buckley 24 Jul 2011, 18:16
It's true that when it comes to the Lake of Fire there is relatively little written about it. The Lake of Fire will is a final and eternal place of damnation.robert 08 Oct 2011, 18:29
gehenna is a hebrew reference to the burning heap of refuse outsidethe city walls near the temple. at that time,there were so many sacrifices
of which the remaining carcasses of the sacrifices were continually being burnt
to ashes (nothingness) that the everlasting reference was immediately made.
ergo , i believe that those reserved for the lake of fire will be burnt to
nothingness as though they never existed. the God (Jesus of Nazareth) that
i worship has made it plain in scripture that those ones are truly worthless as the
chaff which the wind blows away. you or anyone shall not be able to convince
me otherwise.
Psolomon 27 Oct 2011, 02:40
There are three websites which can help clarify all of these issues.JewishnotGreek.com
Hell-Know.net
Sheol-know.org
These sites cover a lot of great information
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